Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest
for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM
The Emperor of Evil!
to Ego, Laufey, Ronan, Dormammu, Yatsu's father, uhhh who else ... Oh and Vulgarr!
@ ACW I'd say probably just Fan Works? Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney was an official game after all, and the fic specifically follows the continuity of said game rather than being a "generic" Layton/Ace Attorney crossover.
Edited by TheGrayFox on Jul 26th 2023 at 12:07:01 PM
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
to Tim, Father, Ronan, Ego and third Ewoks Mass murdering villain.
Fox: Got it. I guess I'll put it under the Ace Attorney tree.
Yes to the father; Vulgarr; two GOTG villains.
Question: Originally the novelizations are just by film release date, but should I do what we do with the films and group the series together? This would mean grouping Skull and Crossbones together for the Junior Novels; and grouping Ronan and Ego together here.
Good Morning, guys. Sorry about the Nightmare Reaper candidate, I really thought what was described in the notes would be enough. My apologies.
Let's drop the sexually abusive parents for some supernatural entities!
What is the work?
The Terror Of Hallows Eve is a 2017 horror film about a boy named Tim, who lives with his mother in the 1980's. A reclusive boy who likes to scare people, Tim is ostracized and bullied, but when three bullies give him a particularly nasty beating, Tim wishes for vengeance and that's where this Monster Clown comes in.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
The Trickster is a being summoned by those who seek vengeance. Introducing itself after a beaten Tim summons it, The Trickster promises Tim vengeance against his bullies by "scaring them to death". It has him lure his bullies (and his innocent Love Interest, April) to Tim's home. Having Tim draw there horrific, brutal demises, one bully is cut open with a butter knife and has his organs devoured by a Humanoid Abomination while he's alive and conscious, the other bully is stabbed to death by a group of puppets with small blades, and the leader of the bullies, Brian, has his throat slit.
When Tim realizes he killed the bullies instead of simply scaring them, he and April attempt to escape from his house, but The Trickster uses its power to trap them, turns into a beast and tries to kill them both. Tim believes smashing the pumpkin he carved to summon the Trickster is the way to defeat it, so it takes the form of his Abusive Father in a bid to stop him psychologically, but Tim smashes the pumpkin anyway, seemingly destroying the Trickster.
In truth giving Tim hope, the Trickster kills April by crushing her in a window and having her impaled by glass. Then Tim wakes up as his mom comes home from work, the events having seemingly been a dream…until his mom screams, having seen the corpses of his bullies and April in the living room. The Trickster then has Tim stab his mother to death and frames him for the murders, ruining his life and condemning him to mental asylum.
The film ends with a nurse in the institution getting a call about the Trickster perpetrating another massacre, this time of a family, with said family's 13-year-old daughter being hunted by him desperately calling to get Tim's help. Roll credits!
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
The Trickster is some sort of spirit of vengeance, but it falls squarely into the Jackass Genie role. This thing doesn't care for anyone who summons it, and makes it clear it slaughters Tim's bullies for fun than any vengeance on his behalf. Not helped by the fact it targeted his mother and April, who Tim most definitely didn't want hurt.
Are they bad enough?
The bullies and Tim's dad were definitely assholes, but all they did was beat Tim. The Trickster is responsible for the deaths of multiple people, psychological torture, ruining Tim's life, and continued to perpetrate another massacre, adding to the death count.
Final verdict?
I say he makes the cut!I have a question. Are we absolutely sure that "Big" Jack Horner's sense of Comedic Sociopathy drowns out his genuine heinousness in a work that takes itself seriously about 60% of the time? Because, for example, what separates his comedic moments from, say, Hades from Kid Icarus: Uprising, a work that's predominantly comedic? And this is taking into consideration the fact that Hades' Complete Monster entry is based on the English localization, because in the Japanese version, Hades has far less comedic moments, but he's still just as heinous, and the game is still just as comedic in the original Japanese script.
Orcus on His Throne will always be my pet peeve.
Trickster.
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Haven't finished Kid Icarus: Uprising, so I can't comment in details, but I believe that while Hades is comedic, his worst actions are treated seriously. The fact that rest of the game is a comedy doesn't relly matter when the villain and his deeds are played seriously. On the other hand, while the Last Wish takes itself seriosuly, most Jack's actions are played for Black Comedy.
Edited by TotemGenitor on Jul 26th 2023 at 2:45:13 PM
What is the Work?
Paper Mario: Black Pit is a Paper Mario 64 rom hack that has Mario who is looking for goomnuts fall into a hole where he is found by Cheato who tells him of the pits where many have went to escape but haven't returned.
Cheato offers to help Mario escape the pit but after reaching the end of one of the pits Mario falls down into the same hole again with him wondering if he has been there before.
Mario also goes to the maze where he finds Mistar who tells Mario to talk to him at a pits end where he reveals that Mario and everyone who reaches the end is put into a infinite loop and that the two bosses at the two pits were his friends who fought the master of the pit but lost.
Mistar then takes Mario to the Black pit near the end of it Cheato appears and reveals that all of the enemies in the pits were people trying to escape.
The master of this place ended up getting bored of them got rid of them and put them on the pit floors leaving them as souls stuck there for forever with this going on for a very long time.
Mario approaches this master to end this once and for all.
Who is Dimentio and what does he do?
Dimentio is the true master of this place who trapped people here for his own entertainment.
Having them struggle to survive and escape the pit which is filled with enemies and traps where if they reach the end they are subject to going through the same thing again and again until gets bored of them in which case he gets rid of them traps them on one of the pits floors leaving them as a soul trapped there forever.
He once fought Mistar and his friends and defeated them trapping Mistar in the maze and two of his buddies in the two pits where they went insane and attacked anyone who crossed them.
He then spared Cheato on the condition that Cheato will be the one of help the people who fall down escape only for Cheato to learn that Dimentio got rid of anyone who went down there leading Cheato to lose many friends.
Dimentio finally faces Mario where he says that Mario has provided him some entertainment but has been getting bored and plans to get rid of him.
Dimentio is seemingly defeated but unleashes an attack that nearly kills Mario that forces Mario to pray to be saved.
After Mario gets the power of everyone from the pit he with his partners unleash an attack that ends Dimentio for good.
Is he bad enough?
This game has everyone meeting each other for the first time with Dimentio not know who Mario is making this game its own canon.
Dimentio traps people forcing them to go through the pits or maze and its deadly traps and enemies where if they haven't died they are forced to repeat the same thing again and again until he gets bored of them where he kills them and traps their souls in one of the pit floors forever.
Dimentio has had many souls stuck on both each of the pits combined 191 floors with the 8 partners being locked in chests and Mario just about to be the newest of his prisoners.
Redeeming qualities?
None at all
He only sees everyone as entertainment and while he does see Mario as a challenge he is gleefully happy to get rid of him.
Verdict?
You deicide
Edited by umaprasis on Jul 26th 2023 at 9:30:45 AM
Soji Rewrite
Soji Mizumi is a vile serial rapist using his photographer career as a cover to find material to blackmail others. One of the people tricked into the pyramid by Tsuchida he hides who he truly is until he finds drugs on Otogi which he uses as blackmail material to rape her while bragging about having done this to others before. After forced monster he thought was a women by Ayuto if he survives he keeps up his charade to avoid his crimes being revealed by possibly helping in the battle against Khufu only to run leaving the others to die. Only on standby by pretense of repaying his debts, and he later approaches Ayuto to take him to the pyramid where they nearly died for a quick buck. A selfish perverted man who used his career to rape others to sate his lust he proves that he only cares for himself.
Edited by umaprasis on Jul 26th 2023 at 7:26:07 AM
