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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

AutumnLeaves Since: Mar, 2014
#19451: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:32:52 PM

[tup]The Kraken. Ed. and [tup] Ultima.

Here goes a new candidate from the Erast Fandorin series, Dr. Lind from The Coronation.

The Work

In The Coronation, the coronation of Tsar Nicholas II and Alexandra Feodorovna is being prepared... and only a week before the grand event, four-year-old Prince Mikhail is kidnapped and the Orlov Diamond is demanded as a ransom. It's quickly revealed that the mastermind of the kidnapping is Dr. Lind, an enigmatic, powerful and ruthless criminal boss.

Character

Dr. Lind is an incredibly charming, daring and clever woman who is also an Excellent Judge of Character. The men under her command would rather die than betray her, since she is able to make each and every one of them madly in love with her.

She started with burglaries, but by the time of the plot, specializes in high-profile blackmail and Cassetti-style You Said You Would Let Them Go high-profile kidnappings. To kidnap little Prince Mikhail, she infiltrates the royal family as a governess, providing fake references from the Portuguese royals.

After Prince Mikhail's kidnapping, the Romanov family face a cruel dilemma: paying the ransom would mean an international diplomatic crisis, since the diamond is one of the symbols of the monarchy and its absence at the coronation would be seriously noted. Erast Fandorin suggests a way to play for time: "loan" the diamond from Dr. Lind, paying the kidnappers a large sum every day until the coronation's over. It both averts the coronation crisis and gives Fandorin time to investigate.

Well, Dr. Lind agrees to a million rubles a day (soon, she switches from money to jewels from the Empress's casket). On the first day, Afanasy, the Old Retainer butler asked to hand over the ransom, loses his head and starts to chase the passing cart where Mikhail is carried away (Fandorin told Dr. Lind that the "loan money" wouldn't be paid unless the boy is proved to be alive).

However, deciding the trouble's not worth it, Dr. Lind has Mikhail killed after the first day and after that, demands that the governess - i.e. her own disguise persona - brings the ransom.

She carries on with the ruse, pretending to be taken away and blindfolded by her own men. Despite everything, Fandorin (who has already nearly caught her in other countries, so It's Personal for him) is hot on her trail.

And now for the truly Moral Event Horizon act: to get away, Dr. Lind has her agents provoke the Khodynskoe field tragedy (this one's a true story: the day after the coronation, thousands were crushed in the crowds at a gift-giving event). Like in history, thousands are crushed to death and many more injured. Dr. Lind herself is injured, but by the time Fandorin catches up to her, she slips into her governess disguise and plays a Wounded Gazelle Gambit, pretending they rescued her from Dr. Lind.

She says that Dr. Lind is Lord Banville, an English lord who has recently left after a scandal - it's an Open Secret that Banville is gay, so it accounts for the fact that there are no women in Dr. Lind's gang. Soon afterwards, she stealthily sends a message to Somov, another of her agents in the royal household, to kill Mr. Carr, Banville's lover, to keep up the "Banville is Lind" ruse.

Still, she reveals herself to Fandorin by accidentally blurting out things that she couldn't have known unless she was Dr. Lind and by slightly contradicting herself in her lies.

Fandorin makes a trap for her, luring her with the promise of the diamond, and manages to shoot her.

Mitigating Factors?

None. There are many men in love with her, but she only exploits it. Even though the four-year-old prince loves her, she coldheartedly murders him.

Even by her own admission (when she's in her governess persona and pretending that Banville is Lind), she is "a poet of the evil and the hatred" beneath her kindly exterior.

Heinousness Standard?

She sets up the death of thousands (which also plays a big part in destabilizing the country). Compared to the two previously-approved C Ms of the series, she is similar to Marie Sanfon, but, while Marie only wants plain old money (and some of her cons are even bloodless), Dr. Lind has a fondness for elaborate psychological sadism (not the more crude animalistic sadism of Jack the Ripper).

In this whole plan, she deliberately picks the Orlov Diamond (though it's too well-known to be sold in its original shape, so she'll earn at most two million after having it cut) as the ransom to torment the royal family and provoke a diplomatic scandal. However, unlike the M Bs of the series, she has no political agenda, doing it just For the Evulz.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

Edited by AutumnLeaves on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:38:01 AM

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#19453: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:41:07 PM

  • Iron Man 3 (includes prelude comic): Aldrich Killian is the CEO of A.I.M. and the creator of the Extremis compound. To perfect the compound, Killian preys on wounded combat veterans to experiment on, leading to several violently exploding. To cover up these failures, he turns these veterans into unwitting suicide bombers in public places, then blames the attacks and resulting deaths on the Ten Rings and an actor pretending to be the Mandarin. Desiring the War Machine armor, Killian's forces lure Rhodey to Hong Kong, where they almost release a virus and detonate a nuclear reactor in the city; he later secures the armor by capturing Rhodey and torturing him until the suit releases him. Along the way, he also murders his comrade Dr. Maya Hansen and forcibly injects Pepper Potts with Extremis, risking her detonation. Killian's master plan is to publicly assassinate President Ellis so the corrupt Vice President Rodriguez can take control, at which point Killian can propagate an endless War on Terror for limitless profits, all because Tony Stark rejected his partnership offer back in 1999.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#19455: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:45:27 PM

Easy, easy [tup] to Ultima. What a vile piece of shit.

Also [tup] to Dr. Lind.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19456: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:46:07 PM

[tup]Lind.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#19457: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:49:22 PM

Yes to Lind. I assume the other 2 still count?

What's the title of the Iron Man 3 prequel comic?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#19458: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:50:42 PM

Literally "Iron Man 3 Prelude" [lol]

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#19459: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:52:47 PM

It's just Iron Man 3 Prelude. I would just put it as this, like you did with the Skull:

  • Iron Man 3: Aldrich Killian is the CEO of A.I.M. and the creator of the Extremis compound. To perfect the compound, Killian preys on wounded combat veterans to experiment on, leading to several violently exploding. To cover up these failures, he turns these veterans into unwitting suicide bombers in public places, then blames the attacks and resulting deaths on the Ten Rings and an actor pretending to be the Mandarin. Desiring the War Machine armor, Killian's forces—as detailed in the film's prelude comic—lure Rhodey to Hong Kong, where they almost release a virus and detonate a nuclear reactor in the city; he later secures the armor by capturing Rhodey and torturing him until the suit releases him. Along the way, he also murders his comrade Dr. Maya Hansen and forcibly injects Pepper Potts with Extremis, risking her detonation. Killian's master plan is to publicly assassinate President Ellis so the corrupt Vice President Rodriguez can take control, at which point Killian can propagate an endless War on Terror for limitless profits, all because Tony Stark rejected his partnership offer back in 1999.

Yes to Ultima and Lind.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 7th 2023 at 4:53:10 AM

AutumnLeaves Since: Mar, 2014
#19460: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:53:27 PM

[up][up][up] Yes, the other two still count - that was my point, that they are quite different in their heinousness from each other.

Edited by AutumnLeaves on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:53:48 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#19461: Jul 7th 2023 at 1:56:03 PM

Yeah, looking at the writeups, Marie tries to kill thousands, while the other dude is a different kind of evil.

AutumnLeaves Since: Mar, 2014
#19462: Jul 7th 2023 at 2:09:50 PM

[up] Well, Marie might be in a similar vein (and she tries to kill 1000 people, not several thousands as Dr. Lind actually manages to kill at Khodynka). Still, I think their motivations are different: Marie is Only in It for the Money, Dr. Lind is in it because for her Evil Feels Good.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#19465: Jul 7th 2023 at 3:13:30 PM

Holy Moly! That's an easy [tup] for Ultima. FF XVI is really dark.

[tup] for Dr. Lind


Three LOTRO candidates done, three more to go. The next one is involved in the second half of the Shelob plotline, so it makes sense to tackle him next.

The Work

A very brief summary of the Lord of the Rings novel trilogy and the MMORPG based on it can be found in this post.

The Candidate

Rûkhor the Pale Herald. Once a mortal man he was turned into one of the Gúrzyul by Sauron as reward for his services. Said Gúrzyul were ageless men and women whom held high positions in Mordor's hierarchy. In the game the Mouth of Sauron is also one of them.

His Deeds

  • Rûkhor had the ability to kill others by draining their blood via magic and then use it to strengthen himself or his allies. The orcs under his command had an unhealthy pale complexion and called themselves the Bloodless and it's know that Rûkhor occasionally sacrificed some of his goblins (a smaller and weaker orc species) to empower his stronger minion.
  • He and another Gúrzyul named Ugrukhôr were in charge of Cirith Ungol when Shelob’s brood attack the fortress. The player character and the elf Legolas helped to push back the spiders and sent a message to Ugrukhôr and Rûkhor basically telling them: "Look, we don't like you and you don't like us but nobody wants the big hungry spider to get out. Send backup ASAP or there will be nothing left of your garrison.” Initially Rûkhor did sent backup even if it was not enough to permanently maintain control of Cirith Ungol. But then he had an epiphany: "Perhaps Shelob is not a problem we can solve. Perhaps she is not a problem at all."
  • His new plan was to unleash Shelob onto the world, to whip out all his rivals and enemies and gain control over Mordor once she would hopefully went back to sleep. The only problem was that Shelob was hiding deep inside a network of tunnels and couldn’t be located. At least not until he noticed the arrival of the Ungoledain, a group of humans who could shape shift into giant spiders and worshiped Shelob. Rûkhor paid them a visit and drained a few of his Goblins to make the Ungoledain matriarch stronger. With this small gift he gained their allegiance.
  • One Ungoledain named Felgúr, who had been exiled after losing his ability to shape shift, realized that Rûkhor was bad news for his people and allied himself with the player character and Legolas to stop him. Unfortunately Rûkhor managed to restore Felgúr's power and all his caution went out of the window. On Rûkhor's command he happily ran into Shelob's lair to search for his goddess. He did find an awaken and hungry Shelob who devoured him while the player character could only watch in horror. Shelob then chased the player character who only got away because the elven Lord Celeborn showed up and saved him. Legolas later speculated that Rûkhor's plan was to have Felgúr stir up Shelob so that she would follow the fleeing player character out of her lair and rampage through the Morgul Vale.
  • A group consisting of several player characters and NPCs led by Lord Celeborn then reentered Shelob's lair to put her down once and for all. Deep inside the lair they encountered Rûkhor again who revealed another fiendish part of his plan. Shelob had called all her children from across Middle-Earth to her lair and planed to feast one them. Rûkhor's plan was to starve her out. So the next time she woke up from her slumber there would be nothing to eat around and she would have to leave her lair in search for more food. He then congratulated the group for making his job easier by killing lots of spiders and siced his second-in-command, Zabothak onto them. When Zabothak was about to lose, Rûkhor drained the pleading orc to absorbe his power before attacking himself. After a fierce battle the Pale Herald was slain, but with his dying breath he procclaimed his victory. Because Shelob was about to wake up and then the whole world would feel her wrath.

Mitigating Factors/Freudian Excuses

This may shock you, but the guy who murdered his own minions for a power boost and wanted to let Shelob rampage around has no sympathetic back story, loved ones or standards. He’s a through and through evil man.

Heinous Standard

  • There are seven Gúrzyul in total, with two of them having not yet appeared in the game. The only one of them who equals Rûkhor in heinousness is Karazgar the Weeping Warrior. He is, among other things, responsible for multiple dragon attacks. Smaug attacking Erebor, killing countless dwarves and humans? That was him!
  • Among Sauron’s other servants we have Lhaereth the Stained who created the Great Plague which killed thousands and is currently working on a new, incurable plague.
  • Neither of these two is actually a CM because they have redeeming qualities. Karazgar is a Noble Demon who eventually starts to respects the player character while Lhaereth seems to have genuinely cared about Sauron and wants to restore her species. Still they set a pretty high standard. That said, Rûkhor’s plan was to use Shelob as weapon of mass destruction to whip out his rivals without caring about any collateral damage. All things considered that's pretty bad.

My Verdict

[tup]

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19466: Jul 7th 2023 at 3:17:24 PM

[tup]Rûkhor

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
P360360P Since: Jun, 2019 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#19467: Jul 7th 2023 at 3:20:32 PM

I am no complete expert on what makes someone qualify regardless of whether or not the work is comedic or if a monster is comedic, if Bill Cipher from the otherwise lighthearted and humorous Gravity Falls show and The Joker from Batman are any indication, but what about Black Hat of the animated series Villainous?

Time and time again, he does all sorts of evil things for kicks, and he proclaims to be even worse than the devil, and he makes most other villains in the Cartoon Network universe cower in fear over him, and some of his characteristics proclaim about his invulnerability, remorselessness, and nastiness, as far as I know!

But I want to know what everyone else thinks!

Edited by P360360P on Jul 7th 2023 at 3:20:53 AM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#19468: Jul 7th 2023 at 3:24:55 PM

Sure to Ru

Doesn't Villainous (Cartoon Network) run on Black Comedy? Laughably Evil monsters do exist, but if the whole show is dark humor that's a high bar too pass

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#19469: Jul 7th 2023 at 3:25:33 PM

[tup] Rukhor

[up][up] Black Hat is different case from Joker and Bill. While they are both rather comedic their crimes are played seriously for the most part. Black Hat is played mostly for Black Comedy and he comes from to comedic work to have candidate, unlike other two. He and Bill are actually pretty good comparisons, both come from rather comedic series and have strong Laughably Evil vibe about them, but story still plays Bill’s crimes and threat seriously.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Jul 7th 2023 at 3:50:12 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#19470: Jul 7th 2023 at 3:56:14 PM

Yes to Rukhor.

Curious: How do the other villains of Erast Fandorin compare to the three CMs?

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#19471: Jul 7th 2023 at 4:15:54 PM

[tup] Ultima. Had a feeling he'd count but HOLY shit.

TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#19472: Jul 7th 2023 at 5:15:47 PM

[tup] for Lind and Rukhor.

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#19474: Jul 7th 2023 at 6:36:36 PM

[tup]Rûkhor, Lind, and Ultima.

So when you say nobody else counts from FFXVI's main story... that's a definite no on Anabella, then? She definitely came across to me like someone tried to write a version of Cersei Lannister that systematically and deliberately averted all of the latter's redeeming qualities, but I guess I could buy her death scene as being somewhat ambiguous.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19475: Jul 7th 2023 at 6:57:26 PM

There is a hint of Alas, Poor Villain with Anabella. Now while she has no care for Clive, she does seem to care about Joshua, but that is also arguable (although I do lean towards it being legitimate albeit selfish). What is not arguable is her care for Olivier. She goes into hysterics when Dion kills what she thinks is Olivier and then kills herself afterwards when she can't deal with the whole situation note . At the end of the day all that makes me say she doesn't count.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 7th 2023 at 9:58:04 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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