Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest
for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM
Hey so I finished watching season 2 of Mayor of Kingstown (and it's long been past 2 weeks since the season finale aired) and I’ve got a candidate worth discussing. Since the show hasn’t been brought up here before lets talk about it
What’s The Work?
Mayor of Kingstown is an American crime thriller television series that is streaming on Paramount +. As described by Paramount + “Mayor of Kingston follows the powerful McLusky family, power brokers in Kingstown, Michigan, where the business of incarceration is the only thriving industry. Tackling themes of systemic racism, corruption and inequality, the series provides a stark look at their attempt to bring order and justice to a town that has neither”. Among the many character this one might be the most depraved and irredeemable, Milo Sunter.
Who is He? What Has He Done?
Milo Sunter is a Russian mobster who was sentenced to life in prison for killing two guards in a bank robbery. Milo also runs a brutal prostitution ring in which he controls his prostitutes, even while he’s in prison, by injecting tracking chips inside their bodies so he knows where they will go, while having his men abuse and beat them for Milo should they not fall in line, even let them rape his prostitutes if they pay for their services.
One of his prostitutes that Milo has so brutally abused and beaten up is Iris whom he has spy on Mike McLusky who becomes the “Mayor” after his older brother had been killed, where Milo forces Iris to work at a strip club while having Iris strip in front of him (Milo has a laptop from prison to watch) for Iris to prove his loyalty to him and when learning about Iris’ bond with Mike, Milo would have his goons brutally assault Iris before selling her off to a white supremacist gang for them to gang rape, simply to see what Mike is capable of.
Milo would also show Mike what he’s capable of by telling him about the location metal box that supposedly had 200,000 dollars. However, Mike digs up that area, he discovers to his horror 26 dead rotten corpses in a school bus all of whom Milo had killed in which the police was trying to incriminate Milo with, but there was never any evidence, showing on why Milo is The Dreaded and what he is willing to do to Mike, his family, and friends of he doesn’t follow is demands.
Eventually Milo would see P-Dog and his gang take control of the prison where Milo would tell them about the keys to the armory and guide them to the armory, supplying P-Dog and the rest of the prisoners weapons which they use to take control of the prison and kill countless prison guards leading to 300 people deaths during the prison riot, while Milo discreetly escapes from the prison unnoticed.
Milo would then plan to escape Kingstown while planning to take his bonds millions of dollars he had hidden to start over. However Milo learns that his bonds were dug up by a naive worker named Horace who had given it away unaware what it was, resulting in Milo having Horace tortured to death, while he intents to search for his bonds, no matter how many more innocent people will die.
Milo would then meet with Mike where Milo would hand over Iris (whose in his custody) to Milo and leave Kingstown forever, if Mike finds his bonds and hands them over, while threatening to kill Mike and everyone he holds dear if Mike tries double crossing him. Of course Milo would grow impatient with Mike and would follow his mother, Mariam McLusky, to her home before holding her and Iris hostage, resulting in a shootout between Mike, Milo, and their allies resulting in countless dead, and Mike’s brother, Kyle, shooting Mariam by accident.
Milo would escape and give Mike one more chance to retrieve his bonds, while threatening to kill and Iris if Mike does anything stupid. Mike would meet Milo in the latter’s boat, where Mike hands over the bag of bonds to Milo while Milo would hand over Iris to Mike before ordering his goons to escort them out of his boat and hold them at gunpoint until Milo leaves, where he then tells his goons that they could do what they want to them, resulting in his goons attempting to kill Mike and Iris. Luckily Mike also had a bomb inside the bag which Mike activates blowing up Milo and his boat while killing off the rest of his goons.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
All that’s known about Milo was that he’s a Russian Mobster who was sentenced to life for killing two armed guards. There is a woman who claimed to be Milo’s wife but there’s never any evidence on if that’s true and could just be one of Milo’s prostitutes since Milo is never seen interacting with this woman and never mentions her
In fact Milo is never shown to care for anyone but himself, even shrugging off Iris having murdered one of his goons while also having a severe case on Evil Cannot Comprehend Good where he doesn’t understand why Mike would go to many length to save Iris from him before telling his goons that they can do whatever they want to the two, basically nudging his goons to kill Iris and Mike to tie up loose ends. Overall, there is nothing sympathetic or redeemable about this bastard.
Heinousness
Mayor of Kingstown is can be pretty brutal while corrupt cops, gangs, and prisoners, committing murders while the protagonists aren’t so noble, though they are A Lighter Shade of Black compared to their enemies. That said Milo is the only one that everyone agrees is truly irredeemable and his atrocities allow him to stand out.
To summarize Milo runs a prostitution where his sex workers are abused, beaten, and raped on a daily basis, while he chips them with tracking devices to know their every move, his treatment towards Iris is abhorrent where in one instance lets a white supremacist group gang rape her, and even lets his goons assault her, has murdered countless people himself, including two armed guards and 26 unidentified people, gives the prisoners access to guns and other weaponry resulting in the prison riot spiraling out of control resulting in 300 deaths, has someone tortured to death, and threatens to kill Miriam and Iris resulting in Miriam getting shot by her son on accident, and lets his men kill Mike and Iris as he makes his escape. In short he’s BAD, even by the standards of the show.
Final Verdict?
I will leave it up to you guys to decide
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffHey guys, another Waking the Dead EP incoming. So, with the candidates me and MGD are 100% certain of done, we’d like to post a few and see what the thread thinks. All of the following characters stick out as being especially heinous for the show but we’re unsure how they measure up to the current keeps. There’s one character in particular we’d like to discuss, from the show’s very first episode “Burn Out.”
Peter Boyd is convinced to look into a cold case involving the corpse of a famed war photographer called Perry Coleman, that was found in a burnt out car. As the team dig deeper a connection with heinous war crimes committed at the height of the Bosnian war emerge, which leads them to a rather surprising discovery.
Who is he?
Rod Brogan aka the corpse in the burnt out car, described by Spencer as a “Serial Killer in uniform.” Brogan was in fact the subject of Coleman’s most famous photograph, showing him holding a crucifix to his face whilst grimacing. The context surrounding the photo however means that it’s anything but a moving portrait of someone disturbed at the horrors of war.
What has he done?
Brogan was a former soldier turned private mercenary. During his time in the war Brogan joined a unit called The Black Wolves that became notorious for war crimes, and were accused of perpetuating several massacres and ethnic cleansings on muslims and civilian targets. The photo that made Coleman’s name? Was taken in a hospital. Whilst Coleman was there, Brogan broke in with his fellow soldiers and rounded up the nurses (12 total). When they locked them in a room, Brogan opened fire and massacred every single one of them, with all the indications being that this is one of many that he has committed. Not content with just shooting them, Brogan looted the bodies and found the crucifix, with Coleman taking the photo at the exact moment Brogan lifted it up and gloated over it. The patients at the hospital were then abandoned to die.
With the war done and the photo of him becoming famous, Brogan eventually tracked down Coleman in England and threatened to massacre his whole family if he ever revealed the truth behind the picture, as well as demanding thousands of pounds. Knowing that Brogan would never leave him alone, Coleman deliberately crashed his car in a tunnel with Brogan in the passenger seat, leaving Brogan to burn alive.
Redeeming qualities or Freudian Excuse?
Like hell.
Heinous Standard?
This is where we are unsure. We’ve run the absolute gamut of war criminals from outright genociders like Radovan to war hawks like Badawi. However, in each of these cases they only commit about a dozen kills on screen whilst being connected with others either offscreen or through implication. With Brogan it’s much the same, with it explicitly being him that committed the massacre in the hospital as he’s the only one shown opening fire, as well as his connection with additional massacres with his squad. Likewise, all the other characters who are shown to commit war crimes are a key figure in their operation. Radovan (Brogan’s main competition) is a senior member of his squad and it’s specifically him who lures in his victims, whilst Badawi has a platoon of men at his disposal that allows him to kill indiscriminately. Brogan has far less resources than they do, as he’s just an ordinary private soldier, meaning that what he does accomplish is very heinous for the show. Likewise, he’s the only member of his squad to appear on screen.
Whilst he’s not as prominent as characters like Radovan and he doesn’t have quite as many kills as others in his tier, he’s still well above the standard in the one massacre we do see onscreen, as a double digit body count is well above the average on the show. This is why we want the thread's opinion here.
Conclusion?
I don’t know. Brogan is admittedly lower down the scale of the war criminals we’ve covered but the issue is that even with that he’s still well above the standard of the show. I think I’m leaning towards a yes but only just. I won’t be upset if people think differently though.
Edited by Atlantis1930 on Apr 6th 2023 at 10:38:08 AM
ACW: I understand your concerns, but I don't think Badawi has any issues to be honest. Its made clear the guy flat out conquered the entire province through such massacres and ends the story still leader, having anyone who speaks out against him killed with total immunity.
Whilst its true that all three have the same onscreen number of victims, that's mostly cause we got to see one particular massacre for each. From the presentation Brogan honestly has the weakest criteria on other crimes, we don't receive any particular details beyond him being part of a group that got a lot of accusations of war crimes and it being heavily implied he was involved with other massacres.
Edited by MGD107 on Apr 6th 2023 at 3:24:53 AM
ACW: There are one or two other war criminals, just nobody on a remotely similar scale. No others involved with massacres or the like (generally no other massacres in rest of the show). Their is for instance an episode for instance about several British War criminals during World War Two who were involved with a gang rape, and one of them tortured a POW during his service in Africa.
Their was another involving a Torture Technician involved in Mahdist War who we contemplated as a quality over quantity candidate, but decided they were insufficiently characterised and probably didn't stand out.
Generally war crimes aren't a common thing in series. Most of the show is about general individual murderers operating for personal reasons.
Edited by MGD107 on Apr 6th 2023 at 3:52:07 AM
How many massacres is it implied Brogan was involved in, and how big was that hospital that Brogan attacked and killed the nurses in? Because I'm looking at the CM list right now and I'm leaning towards voting
.
for Milo Sunter.
Also where do we stand on doing an EP from a form of media where Word of God more or less stated that they created the work to "express their feelings" about a certain organization or group of people? Because I recently finished a gory novella that has a possible candidate, but the author made it very clear that they wanted to make a gory, over-the-top book that was also a takedown of a particular group they aren't fond of in real life. Not helping matters is that this book boils down to "Monster gorily kills teens in the woods—plot twist! This character was behind it the whole time!
You can PM me if you wanna know more details.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.@Tyk No problem! The massacre in the hospital is the only one we see onscreen, but the unit was responsible for several additional massacres and Brogan was parley to all of them. The unit was also notorious for it's brutality and going after civilians, so the stuff in the hospital is strongly implied to be routine for Brogan.

Cheryl.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."