Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Yes to raznan and Baxter Stockman. For Sorjonen, I've got one with thanks to MGD!
From the two-parter episode Bloodmaid: Olivi Hannas Eiskola
Who is Eiskola
A cannibalistic serial killer. End EP. Long and short, the episode begins as our heroes find a mutilated corpse in the wall of a student's flat at school. Sorjonen begins the investigation and learns of disturbing links between the victim, the student and more missing people.
So, long and short? Olivi Hannas Eiskola is a murderer who eats his victims. He lures people in, mostly women, and psychologically tortures them, breaking them down until he can prey on them. Whereupon, he carves them apart while they're alive and drugged, and cooks them up.
But hey, with Sorjonen and his provision of mental quirks on the case, he's gonna be caught, right? You bet. HE's caught just before he can dissect his latest victim, answering with disturbing dispassion of "just let me do this" before he's arrested.
Mitigating issues?
Not the highest bodycount, but the psychological torture, cruelty and unique niche make him stand out. He's a really simple and basic keep.
Conclusion?
And a yes!
Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 26th 2023 at 12:46:14 PM
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to king Razvan, dude easily seems worse than Einon. ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
yeah that seems like enought for both of them to count.
And yes to Canibalistic serial killer
Edited by EmperorGeode on Mar 26th 2023 at 12:48:43 PM
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Tbf Einon is a rapist. And has an entire army of people enslaved and tortured over ten years. But this guy seems to have a higher body count. So I think their botth distinct. So I'll toss a
eiskola
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2023 at 12:47:33 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yeah, Einon is fine. He spends years torturing, enslaving and murdering people, he tries to rape the heroine (succeeds in the novelization), and he commits matricide.
Here's ym schedule next friends! Star Wars, some Draculas, Constant Gardener, Deus Ex, Tales from the Crypt, Patient Zero, maybe the Specialist, Constantine and then the games.
Edited by Lightysnake on Mar 26th 2023 at 12:55:08 PM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Razvan and Eiskola
Razvan, cannibal killer
to Razvan and Eiskola
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Einon's writeup seems a bit awkward.
Man, I'm dying to know who we missed from Tales.
Edited by ACW on Mar 26th 2023 at 4:04:24 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Razvan and Eiskola
Okie dokie, let's knock this out:
What's the work?
Monsters, Inc. is the classic Pixar film with a star-studded cast, set in a world of monsters, Monstropolis. In this world, monsters hold jobs and keep their society running through scream energy, which they obtain by using a variety of portal doors to scare children at night and fill up scream canisters. Our leads are Sully and Mike, the top Scarer team at Monsters, Inc., who wind up having to care for a small child that has stumbled into their world. Through Mike and Sully's efforts, the world of monsters is changed for the better to one where children's laughter is used instead of screams, giving a happy ending...but along the way before the resolution, they go up against a nasty baddie who seeks to change the Scarer game in a different way.
Who is Randall? What has he done?
- A slimy, smug chameleon-like monster voiced by Steve Buscemi, Randall is chronologically introduced in Monsters University as a nerdy college student who, though at first friends with Mike, very quickly turnscoat and becomes one of the recruits of ROR, his personality becoming that of an arrogant jerk to serve his desire for popularity. After being unintentionally humiliated by Sully during the final round of the Scare Games, Randall swears vengeance and holds a grudge for years to come.
- Though introduced in Inc. as just a generic Jerkass and The Rival to Sully for title of Top Scarer, Randall's worse colors are soon revealed: He's developed a "Scream Extractor" machine, made to latch onto children's faces and suck the screams and oxygen out of them. He plans to "revolutionize the industry" with his creation, ending the need for the classic "monster in the closet" routine to instead kidnap kids and torture the screams out of them with the machine. To help develop the machine, Randall uses his abused minion Fungus, regularly trash-talking and threatening him with violence to keep him in line.
- Planning to kidnap the toddler Boo—a regular victim of his scares—to serve as his test subject, Randall instead accidentally snags Mike. Strapping Mike to the machine, Randall plans to torture him with the device into telling him where Boo is, but luckily Mike is able to escape thanks to Sully. Randall quickly teams with Waternoose to banish Mike and Sully to a barren, icy wasteland so no one will stand in their way as Randall prepares to use the Extractor on Boo.
- When Mike and Sully manage to make it back to Monsters, Inc. and rescue Boo, Randall attempts to murder them both to Leave No Witnesses, gleefully drawing out his attempt to murder Sully by dropping him to his death while snarling "Don't worry, I'll take good care of the kid!"
- Thankfully, Boo finally overcomes her fear of Randall and attacks him long enough for Sully to survive and get the drop on him. Mike and Sully banish Randall through a portal door and break it so he can never return, Randall last seen winding up in the swamps of Florida and attacked with a shovel by a local who mistakes him for an alligator
![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
Mitigating features?
Nothing redeeming, tragic or sympathetic about him. He's a Smug Snake and Jerkass whose only motive for his actions is that he wanted to popular in college, became a jerk for it, and then gets karmically humiliated because of it, prompting him to hold a lifelong grudge against Sully for it. He's a wholly petty, self-absorbed creep who wants power, fame and money because of his invention.
The one issue I can genuinely see is his defeat. He gets banished through a door and winds up in Florida and beaten down with a shovel lmao. No doubt it is a hilarious, slapstick ending for him, but personally, I can't say it disqualifies him. CMs can have comedic defeats so long as their overall actions and character aren't impacted by comedy, and Randall is absolutely played seriously enough through the story and the final battle. His last few moments being a humiliating, hilarious beatdown doesn't change his overall nastiness and seriousness, for me.
Heinousness?
So, firstly, while Waternoose is the Big Bad? Randall is The Heavy of Inc, serving as the brains and inspiration behind the Scream Extractor. He came up with the idea and developed it, and has simply swayed Waternoose to finance his idea and help him "revolutionize" Scaring. Waternoose is a genuine WIE who wants to help the monster world with the boosted energy, but Randall is just a greedy Attention Whore.
Now, as for if Randall is actually bad enough? I'd say yes. The Scream Extractor ain't some harmless device: Randall is explicitly going to torture Mike with it, Boo is horrified as it approaches her, and when Fungus is strapped into it for, like,7 seconds? He's shrieking in agony and barely breathing when it's finally turned off. Whether the machine is fatal or not to kids misses a big point of its horror: it's a torture machine that sucks air and screams out of its victims that Randall is intending on using on children on a regular basis. At a certain point it's no longer, for me, a question of "are the kids going to die", and the simple acknowledgement that "the kids are going to be put through horrible pain so Randall can make a quick buck." He's further planning to outright murder Mike and Sully.
Final Verdict?
I can understand feelings he doesn't hit and welcome discussion, but I'm honestly a Yes. His actions are played seriously for the whole film, he's planning to use a torture device on children, and while his defeat is comedic, I can't say it disqualifies him. Up to y'all!
Edited by Ravok on Mar 26th 2023 at 1:07:15 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I honestly see no problem with Randall going up. He's plenty awful for a kid's movie villain.
Yes to Razvan and Eiskola as well.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Mar 26th 2023 at 1:07:01 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Man in the Yellow Hat
You know what, to Randall. I feel his last scene isn't detracting, since its after he's no longer a threat, and I feel his plan is explicit enough.
to Randall
to Randall
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I am a to Randall.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, rewatching the scene where the extractor is used on Fungus I'll say the torture is explicit enough to say for Randall, even knowing his fate is probably to be sold as gator jerky on the side of the road
Yes to Razvan, Eiskola and a happy one for Randall!
Lizzid people!
Sure. Will go for a yes with Randall.
Goku Black
Randall Boggs. With a refresher.
Nsh he doesn't really do pure evil roles. His bad guys usually have redeeming qualities.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2023 at 1:14:32 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Introduce a little anarchy
Wow! I did not expect this! I thought Randall Boggs was Randall Boggsstandard lol, but yeah, rewatching the scenes a few minutes ago, I’d say the effects of the machine are explicit enough to Randall Not-so-Boggs-Standard lol.
And wow, gotta say I’m kinda overwhelmed by how many EP’s I’ve missed.
Collector of Worlds
to Randall. Always liked that creepy mofo.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Can’t believe we missed this guy up til now. Randall
Bye
King Razvan, Eiskola, Randall
Randall.
Hi everyone, it's been a while since I posted an EP. I don't think this candidate had been discussed before, but if I'm wrong then I apologize.
What's The Work?
Dragonheart: Vengeance is the fifth movie in the Dragonheart franchise, and a prequel to the first film. It takes place in the kingdom of Wallachia, which is ruled by King Razvan.
Who Is He and What Has He Done?
King Razvan is the ruler of Wallachia. He's a heroic king beloved by his people for protecting them during the border wars.
...Or at least, that's the official version. In reality, King Razvan is a cruel tyrant who cares about no one but himself and has only ever pretended to protect his people to gain popularity. He secretly started the border wars himself in order to make his people dependent on his protection and be seen as a hero. When some of his men realized how corrupt he truly was, Razvan would arrange for them to die during the wars. While the wars caused plenty of deaths and famines among his people, the king lived in luxury and did absolutely nothing to bring peace as long as the situation suited him.
After being severely wounded in battle, King Razvan went to see the dragoness Siveth to ask her to save him by sharing her heart with him. On the way, he ran over a family just to get there faster, killing the man and woman and leaving their young son Darius half-dead. Suspecting his evil nature, Siveth refused to help the king and chose to share her heart with Darius instead, which caused her to be declared a traitor and condemned to exile.
Ultimately, King Razvan survived his injuries. Due to the repercussions of the wars and the poor rule of the king, the kingdom suffered from a shortage of food in the following years. Razvan wouldn't bother to actually help his people with that problem, but he didn't want to risk a revolt either, so he came up with a new plan:
He decided to hire four particularly vicious marauders, named the Wolf, the Bear, the Snake and the Scorpion, and ordered them to ransack the villages of the kingdom, with the instruction to eliminate those who suffer from starvation first. This way, he not only got rid of the people who would potentially complain about the food shortage and his lack of action to solve it, but he also redirected the people's anger towards the four marauders instead of him. And of course, he was planning to kill the four marauders in due time in order to be hailed by the people as a hero.
At the beginning of the film, the four marauders have sacked at least six villages and slaughtered many innocent villagers, including the parents of the protagonist Lukas. And they don't intend to stop there, with the Bear even seeking to recruit a tribe of barbarians infamous for their savagery in order to commit even more mayhem. When villagers come to ask King Razvan for help, he claims that he is too busy dealing with the four marauders to take care of the food shortage, when in reality he isn't doing anything for the moment.
One day, King Razvan is told that Lukas and Darius have managed to kill the Bear and to arrest the Snake. He comes to see them in person and has Darius brutally beaten up while threatening to kill him if he continues his hunting of the marauders, as he alone must deal with them and get the glory for stopping them (which he will do only when he deems it necessary). Soon after, the Snake is released by the Scorpion and the two cause a fire in the city. Razvan has Darius and Lukas framed for releasing the prisoner and setting the fire, and declares them wanted criminals.
A few weeks later, King Razvan learns that Darius, Lukas and the dragoness Siveth have killed the Scorpion and the Snake, and have taken refuge in a monastery. He goes there with his soldiers and orders Siveth to hand over the two "criminals" so that they can be punished, or else his soldiers will attack. However, Darius shows that he has captured the Wolf, and makes him publicly confess that the four marauders have been acting on the king's orders. Razvan claims that this is a lie and orders his soldiers to kill everyone, but Siveth promises to protect those who will stop following the king. Most of the king's men, who can't stand his corruption anymore, choose to turn against him, resulting in Razvan being overthrown and sent to jail alongside the Wolf.
Mitigating Factors?
Nothing. No Freudian Excuse, no Redeeming Qualities, this guy is nothing more than a complete scumbag through and through.
In case you're wondering why he left Darius alive after beating him up, Razvan is obsessed with popularity, so killing the guy who just captured one of the most feared criminals in the kingdom probably wouldn't be very good for his image.
Heinous Standard
Let's see. The guy started wars that caused lots of deaths and starvation among his people, deliberately ran over a family including a child, hired vicious killers to ransack several villages and slaughter many innocents, had the three protagonists exiled, beaten up, framed for crimes they didn't commit, and eventually he tried to have them killed... I think he's more than heinous enough.
The only problem is... the guy lives in the same universe (albeit in a different period) as Einon, who was pretty nasty...
Verdict
In a standalone film, I think he'd pass. But since he has to compete with Einon, I'm not entirely sure... I'll leave that up to you guys.