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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#50376: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:20:28 PM

Yeah, ONE victim committing suicide is not confirmation that others will do that and assuming that is the case IS Fridge Horror. We have downvoted lots of candidates on the basis that, even though their actions would realistically result in horrible life-threatening consequences, the story does not elaborate on if this is the case and any assumptions are just that.

Compare that to Mentor Heuh, a woman with way less resources who directly causes at least two slow, painful deaths, one being a child, shatters a man's mind, and causes him to subject his wife to Domestic Abuse. That is what I would expect from a con artist CM.

In addition, a Conspiracy Thriller villain should get up to way worse; starting wars, ordering assassinations and offing people who know too much, funding terrorism and carrying out False Flag Operations, and the like is what I expect from a CM in that genre.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#50377: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:26:11 PM

Here's how I see it: we have a guy who explicitly robs people of literally all their money, it is portrayed as ruining their lives, it is so bad that one of his victims commits suicide. It is made clear their lives are ruined, and with it being clear that he does this often he's a serial life-ruiner, and that's good enough for me

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#50378: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:30:25 PM

Ruining lives is generic villainy too. It's still nothing compared to murder, rape, slavery, torture, etc.

Like I can argue a school bully ruins lives, bully doesn't equal CM.

Edited by username2527 on Jul 20th 2024 at 2:33:17 AM

Bozzy Since: Feb, 2023
#50379: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:33:37 PM

Making a cottage industry out of ruining lives of the elderly is far beyond generic villainy to me. He has a huge building of his employees, all working specifically to drain the elderly of all they have. The movie hammers home that he has a massive count of victims left with absolutely nothing when he's through with them

Being bullied is a whole different thing from having every last cent to your name stolen, especially as an older person. This is objectively life destroying, and it's clear his pattern of doing so is wide

Edited by Bozzy on Jul 20th 2024 at 2:35:06 AM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#50380: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:33:42 PM

I contend that if a work makes it clear someone's life has been ruined it's not generic villainy, there's a difference between "make someone's life worse for a bit and "makes people's lives so bad one of them kills themself", even if he doesn't kill them himself

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50381: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:34:55 PM

Yeah, look, it's no longer Fridge Horror when the dialogue flatly says that the torment Eloide went through, for which she killed herself, is normal operations for Derek's group, which has similarly ruined countless lives.

Ruining lives of elderly folks is not "generic villainy", username, not when we explicitly know that it can and does lead to suicide. Some folks here are way too fixated on "but where's the mass genocide? Where's the serial rape?" to see the forest for the trees that we're discussing a serial life ruiner whose crimes are so bad that it can and does push people to kill themselves out of despair. Comparing Derek's level of life ruination to a "schoolyard bully" genuinely makes me concerned as to how you are interpreting the character's actions.

Saying that those he torments can and will kill themselves isn't Fridge Horror, it's something the movie presents as happening to people he scams. Eloide is the only "officially, 100%, top-notch" confirmed case of suicide, yes, but we're told that what she went through, the thing that pushed her to kill herself, is how Derek operates on the regular. The idea is not "countless people have killed themselves", the idea is that he's putting countless elderly, vulnerable people through enough torment and life ruination that it can and does push them to suicide, and that is fucked, not "generic."

If anyone still thinks saying "he pushed one woman to suicide with his regular tormenting style and has repeated that tormenting style to countless others" is anymore Fridge Horror than the pattern rule we've used to list bookoodles of serial killers, then it's obvious that how they and I understand this trope and how it works is vastly different, and there's no need for me to wax poetic any longer except to say that I think the evidence in the film is enough for Derek to count.

If you disagree for heinousness purposes, cool, but Fridge Horror is not a valid argument at this juncture.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#50382: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:36:41 PM

[tup] to Derek

From what I am seeing, even if there are no other confirmed victims and no one else has committed suicide aside from this one woman, the fact that one of his many victims was driven to the point where she takes her life shows to me that his other victims could have potentially also been pushed to commit suicide (even if they don't end up doing it), but he doesn't care about that possibility and continues with his actions. This is not Fridge Horror because it's established that the victims of his scams could be pushed to the point where they end their own lives. This also shows how horribly he ruins their lives to the point a person prefers to take their own life rather than continue to suffer after he has scammed her out of all her money.

Edited by WatTambor on Jul 20th 2024 at 12:38:45 PM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#50383: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:36:58 PM

Ok honestly i'm saying Sure to Derek at this point if the film really makes it clear this regularly happens.

I also genuinely apologize for calling it Fridge Horror Rav.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#50384: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:37:20 PM

Based on the bits I'm getting here, this isn't just the routine ruining of others' lives: this is taking the only source of income from the elderly that they have and basically putting them into poverty. That's a pretty rotten thing for the villain in a thriller to do.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#50385: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:40:22 PM

Okay Rav has convinced me.

[tup]Derek.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50386: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:40:56 PM

Not directed at you at all Dood, you come from a legitimate place and I hadn't posted the direct quotes from the film to really show that this kind of stuff is regular life ruination for Derek at the point that you mentioned FH. Things weren't laid out as clearly when you namedropped Fridge Horror. If anyone wishes to downvote on heinousness concerns then I say go for it, I think Derek is a baseline case either way, but I maintain that with the proof supplied from the direct quotes from the film I shared, Fridge Horror isn't an issue.

Edited by Ravok on Jul 20th 2024 at 2:41:47 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#50388: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:41:51 PM

I'm exactly saying no for heinous standard reasons and not Fridge Horror. What he is doing is absolutely a step down from outright torture or mass murder.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#50389: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:43:07 PM

Honestly switch back to [tup] for Derek

[tup] Evil Queen quote as well

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#50390: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:43:41 PM

Yeah. Switching back to [tup] Derek.

Reminds me of a character from Women's Murder Club where a nursing home manager blackmails his patients into smuggling drugs under threats of abuse and even leads to two deaths. Though, I don't know if that one counts due to being a police drama.

Yes to the Evil Queen quote as well.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 20th 2024 at 4:44:48 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#50391: Jul 20th 2024 at 2:52:55 PM

I’m not saying what he does isn’t bad; realistically it could result in those elderly people starving to death, and if that speech had contained those words that would be enough. Would a character who regularly defames people and turns society against them, such that they find it difficult or next-to-impossible to live a normal life because they have less access to good jobs and opportunities after being Convicted by Public Opinion, count as a CM for being a serial life-ruiner? Genuine question here because this could set a precedent in that direction.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Bozzy Since: Feb, 2023
#50392: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:13:46 PM

Well, it would depend on the story and how their actions are treated I guess. This movie makes it clear enough Derek destroys lives on a daily basis (his call centre is buzzing with activity when we see it), explicitly for years, and to the point law enforcement know about his group's existence.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50393: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:17:13 PM

It's just...for an action flick...

TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#50394: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:27:03 PM

[tup] for Bombshell, Heretech, and the Dark Presence.

Think I'm just going to abstain on Derek because I feel like both sides have decent points.

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#50395: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:27:45 PM

It's a very unique way for a villain in that genre to take advantage of a certain group of people in the worst way possible from the sound of it though.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50396: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:28:28 PM

I personally think we should be able to look at the context of the film and the unique case that is happening in it to debate about the heinous standard without simply going "well for the action genre is it bad enough?", especially because the plot of this film and its villain are, plainly, not like a lot of action film setups.

Derek, simply, has very little in the way of a villain archetype from the genre to compare to. He's not a terrorist who you can say "yeah he tries to bomb a bus but that's generic compared to other action villains who try to blow up cities." He's not a warlord who you can say "yeah he tries to conquer his village but that's tame compared to other action villains who try to take over whole countries." He's a very unique, very niche brand of villain whose schtick, whose goal, isn't "bomb a bunch of people" or "conquer certain places", it's to ruin countless lives and leave countless elderly folks in destitution-bordering-on-suicide, which I would argue is a giving us a unique situation even with the "action flick" genre in mind.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50397: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:31:26 PM

I mean, maybe? I can be convinced to abstain, but I that's as far as I'll go.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50398: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:36:16 PM

You can maintain your no, I just am presenting my personal thoughts on the situation and why Derek is a kind of unique case tough to quantify compared to typical action film archetypes.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
MistaClean from Newfoundland Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#50399: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:37:43 PM

I think I'll give a [tup] to Derek.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#50400: Jul 20th 2024 at 3:52:30 PM

Bump

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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