Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest
for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM
I guess I’ll switch to a straight up
to Flint then. If himself and his actions are taken seriously and are played for horror like they should then I guess he’s perfectly fine for CM in my book. Though I don’t think it’s bold of me to assume that he’s going to be the ONLY Muppets CM candidate right?
Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:22:21 AM
I'm saying no to Flint. All of his men were abject asshole victims—the accompanying song gleefully describes how "each man aboard would have killed his mate for a bag of pennies or a piece of eight!" and how "the Devil himself would have called them scum!"
It is a massacre in a Muppets movie, but I think we're too caught up on the semantics of that specific detail. Without that, Silver is nothing exceptional—we fully expect a pirate to betray and kill for treasure. What makes Silver unique if his entire body count consists of asshole pirates just like him?
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 14th 2023 at 2:23:06 AM
I mean, the Muppet Show once had an episode where Statler and Waldorf begin going on a serial killing rampage and their final punishment is played entirely for laughs. Billy Connolly has joked he's proud of being the only character to actually die in a Muppets film.
The Muppets has a very long tradition of playing lots of things for jokes with winks and nods.
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Yeah, it DOES feel awkward approving the character given the extremely comedic nature of the overall franchise that he’s apart of. Like I said before, it’s like approving a Spongebob character for CM, but if Flints actions are taken seriously enough and he himself is played seriously enough then I think he’s fine.
Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:26:35 AM
I'm retracting the post on Flint, not worth the aggressive debating. If someone else wants to double-check and propose him, be my guest, but I'm officially pulling my proposal and have struck it, so the discussion can drop.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:28:53 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I'm with Lore and Lighty on Flint. At least with Jack Horner he was taken seriously by the film, and didn't just kill evil characters. Not sure if I would have voted yes to Horner myself, but I can actually see him as an example. With Flint, I honestly cannot see someone who (brutally or no) kills 14 evil pirates with no innocents involved, the Miss Piggy thing is a joke, and I think at one points played Suicide for laughs. I'm not outright rejecting the notion of a comedic work having an example but let's be rational and real here: This is a kids film, nothing about slaughtering the pirates is played seriously, and they are ALL Asshole Victims. It's not like we're upvoting Eric Cartman but it feels like upvoting someone who only goes after AV seems a little too kind for this trope.
I am calling it semantics when I think more people are fixated on the jarring exceptionalism of a massacre in a Muppets movie rather than who those people were (i.e. pirates portrayed with the subtlety of a brick through a wall).
That said I am convinced the film is serious enough for a CM. The film is tongue-in-cheek about being Darker and Edgier ("He died? But this is a kids' movie!") but Flint killing off his crew is played, by the series' standards, quite straight.
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Oh man. I’m so so dearly sorry, Ravok. Look at what we’ve done everyone. We should’ve kept this discussion civil.
Everyone please apologize to Ravok now.
Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:30:05 AM
@Lighty That doesn't mean they can't have an underlying deeper meaning though. This is not like Antwaun where while his most horrid act of nearly wiping out everyone in the game for his own self interests is played as serious, he otherwise is a completely moronic buffoon that's not really a legit threat until that moment. Flint never has comedy to him and in universe, his murdering his own crew to preserve his treasure is in tone with that too.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:33:17 AM
I understand, Ravok. I still don’t think you should’ve straight up retracted your proposal because you didn’t deserve to have to do that, but I completely respect and understand your decision.
Everyone please let us be better at discussing stuff like this so that this never has to happen again.
Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:34:17 AM
Rav, I don't think that's necessary. I thought this was a fairly healthy debate. Nobody insulted or really got that angry from what I could tell.
I feel like this has good cause to it; was well executed as an EP and very reasonable, even if I wasn't saying yes—which I still am.
Rav, you put the EP out and most are on your side. Let us all vote as we will and whether or not Flint goes up, that'll be that. Nothing was wrong that makes it pointless or misguided.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:36:54 AM

Also: Monster FBI.