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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25876: Sep 14th 2023 at 3:03:51 AM

Awaiting the answer on [up][up]this.

Yes to Paymon and Carson.

Telsin... I'll buy she's not well-intentioned, and she may clear baseline, but how does she compare to the other Cosmere villains?

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#25878: Sep 14th 2023 at 4:02:36 AM

[tup]Telsin, Carson

[tdown]Kord

Late write up:

  • Batman: The Brave and the Bold: "Duel of the Double Crossers!" / "Death Race To Oblivion!": Mongul is the sadistic ruler of War World with a love for Deadly Games. Mongul has Jonah Hex unwittingly under his employ to capture fighters from across the galaxy, where Mongul forces them to compete in his personal Gladiator Games against his sister, Mongal. The captured gladiators must fight to the death against Mongal's champion, Steppenwolf, with hundreds of gladiators having been slain by the present day. Seeking revenge on Batman for releasing his prisoners, Mongul travels to Earth for revenge, where he sets up a Death Race and forces various heroes and villains to compete, or face their hometown being destroyed. Mongul also sets up the stakes, so that the winner of the Death Race will be made ruler of the Earth while all the losers are executed, but if Mongul's champion, Steppenwolf wins, the Earth will instead be destroyed. After Batman wins, Mongul gleefully reveals he never intended to keep his word and was going to destroy the Earth anyway.

HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
#25879: Sep 14th 2023 at 4:32:38 AM

[tdown] Cut the power Kord. Sorry, Lew

Infamous Chinese Emperors: Liu Yu of the Liu Song Dynasty stands out as a sadistic monster in spite of his young age and short reign. Delighting in Hunting the Most Dangerous Game with his spear and bow, Liu Yu had civilians captured to be his live human targets to be run through with his spear and riddled unsuspecting farmers with arrows. Selecting a disapproving servant as his one of his targets, Liu Yu deliberately gives him a painful flesh wound when the servant pleads for a quick death. Liu Yu also regularly roamed the streets with his thugs, killing any man, woman and animal on sight, and attempted to poison his mother when she attempted to rein in his impulses.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25880: Sep 14th 2023 at 4:37:20 AM

Where does Liu go in the tree?

HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#25882: Sep 14th 2023 at 5:24:21 AM

@Lightysnake there’s one more guy I wanna speak on from Typhoon but otherwise, until further notice yeah. Keeping an eye out for the Michonne & Rick, Maggie & Negan and The Daryl Show for any other potentials.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#25883: Sep 14th 2023 at 5:27:23 AM

Not completely up on the rules and culture of the new thread - is Armored Core VI: Fires of Rubicon yet kosher for discussion?

Edited by Iaculus on Sep 14th 2023 at 12:27:51 PM

What's precedent ever done for us?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25884: Sep 14th 2023 at 6:23:12 AM

[up] Assuming nobody's claimed it, yes.

High, please add to the Drafts.

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#25885: Sep 14th 2023 at 6:30:34 AM

Here’s the last possible candidate yet, also in Typhoon: Defensemaster Wangfa.

Who is He? What Does He Do?

  • Lieutenant and Defensemaster Wangfa is the secondary antagonist of the book. At then beginning of the outbreak, Wangfa was a former member of the Falcon Commando Unit, which he was in trial for his abusive behavior and excessive force, before he became a member of the Beacon of Light and a Windrunner for them.

  • Originally a regular soldier, after the Typhoon of coming jiāngshī and the failed bridges being destroyed, Guo replaces Hengyen and promotes Wangfa to Defensemaster, to which is made clear the power has gone to his head.

  • Apart of Guo’s plan to abandon Beacon of Light, Wangfa comes up with the idea of mass drafting the vultures and other civilians from the area to fight, personally leading much of the kidnappings and slavery of the innocent Vultures, Smokers and Monks while keeping them imprisoned in containment units for them to fight against the horde. With that, he also started to control the guards, having them be intimidated and abusing the citizens under the enablement of Guo to keep the law in check.

  • After Zhu becomes disillusioned and deserts, Wangfa had his men brutally interrogate Bo, having him beaten bloodied in order for him to share the information on where he went.

  • When Zhu, Elena, Bo and the members of the grove plan to flee, Wangfa intercepts them and attempts to force them back to the front lies, before fighting Zhu and Bo. After a brutal fight with the duo where he injures them critically, he callously murders Bo by throwing a knife into his chest, murdering him before blaming Zhu for his death.

  • When Hengyen sent him back to the front lines, Wangfa proceeds to slip away as the zombie horde spews in, leaving everyone to die as he, along with Guo and his men and steals a lifetime of food and weapons.

  • The few weeks after the invasion and Wangfa and Guo’s men are hiding out on the silo, Wangfa shows to have zero loyalty to Guo, and in fact despises him and the overabundance of the men around. Wangfa has explicit plans to murder Guo and several of the men befoee taking the lifetime supplies and the best men to raid all the areas around China, th8nking about bringing about the age of The Warlord. This plan never comes to fruition as a vengeful Hengyen and his men track them down and murder them, Hengyen tossing a knife in Wangfa’s chest.

Mitigating Factors?

Not really. While starting out as a regular mook who seems like alright, if not a bit of a Jerkass, he is shown to be a complete Dirty Coward as well as a major egotist who only cares for himself and flaunting his own power over others. While saying to show some respect towards Ming Haobo and Zhu, this doesn’t stop him from brutally beating the two and murdering Bo, proceeding to blame Zhu for it for a twist of the knife. He also shows no loyalty to anyone, planning to kill Guo and the weak men.

Heinous Standard ?

Originally Just a regular jerkass before becoming much worst, Wangfa came up with the idea and lead the mass kidnapping and enslavement, being the muscle of the operation as the Defensemaster, making him personally responsible for the enslavement and imprisonment of innocent civilians to throw them into the front lines just to die as he and Guo’s other men leave them all to die with a lifetime of supply. Overall, he’s just as important to Guo’s operation and makes an important component in it.

Verdict ?

Gonna go with a yes.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25886: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:00:22 AM

Nasty Walking Dead dragons are really blending together for me and I am so burned out on this series that I don't see Wangfa making it. i also do want the issue with Guo someone raised earlier addressed.

Like it's been a constant parade of "this evil guy kidnaps people and uses slaves and sacrifices them to zombies" that Guo is only in discussion on pure numbers. Wangfa just seems to carry out his will.

Likewise a nay to Kord, a yes to Telsin, and a yes to Carson.

Edited by Lightysnake on Sep 14th 2023 at 7:02:35 AM

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#25887: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:24:54 AM

[tdown] to Wangfa then per Lighty's arguments

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25888: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:25:07 AM

How does Telsin match up to the other Cosmere baddies? Especially the two current keepers? Rayse at least seems worse.

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#25889: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:26:16 AM

Well for Wangfa, while he is technically a dragon, it’s made clear he’s an important and cessecary member. He’s responsible directly for coming up with the idea of the drafting to Guo and was leading it, so I don’t think he really fails as he’s complicit enough in the kidnappinh and enslavement of hundreds and the constant abuse that happened to the thousands in Beacon of Light and important enough. Esp. Since Wangfa’s motives are entirely self interested in exhibituing his own power.

And for Guo’s issue, his claims entirely fall flat. It’s made 100% clear he was abandoning Beacon of Light and was preparing for it, lying to Hengyen and all the others to keep them in Beacon just so Guo can raid their supplies and food from himself and his supporters (who he berates and orders around, so that also isn’t a prevention). It’s made very clear Guo had no interest in his community and was only interested in the power and status.

And also, while enslavement is common. Guo and Wangfa are responsible for the mass exploration and enslavement Eh of hundreds to thousands of people all the while planning on having pretty much all of them lay their lives down for their country all for their own goals. It’s way more than what any other do

[down] wdym on dragons?

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Sep 14th 2023 at 10:31:36 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25890: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:30:47 AM

Telsin doesn't seem to be on the same level as Rayse, who's a legit god incarnate.

I'm really just not sure about Wangfa given the horrid standard dragons set.

DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
#25891: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:35:00 AM

Leaning [tup] to Guo, assuming he was trying to talk Hengyen down from killing him and as such contradicting the obvious.

Edited by DukeNukem4ever on Sep 14th 2023 at 7:35:48 AM

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#25892: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:36:11 AM

Yeah he was basically trying to save face, which Hengyen obviously doesn’t buy (planning a MB proposal on Hengyen’

[up][up]Also, apologies but, what does dragons set mean?

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Sep 14th 2023 at 10:36:33 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#25893: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:36:39 AM

The trope The Dragon, for the Big Bad's right-hand man.

Staying out of the walking dead candidates, I can't keep track of the heinous standard anymore

[tup] to Carson

Not reading Telsin, haven't read The Lost Metal yet and I don't want any more spoilers

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25894: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:40:35 AM

The Dragon is a trope to mean the villain's right-hand. Darth Vader to Palpatine for one

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#25895: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:42:06 AM

Although it is in the queue to be sent to the Trope Repair Shop.

[tup] Paimon and Carson.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#25896: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:42:38 AM

Ah I see. Well, again, it’s shown that Wangfa is consistent and an important part of Guo’s actions, being the one to come up with and also is the one to lead the draft, while also being the leader of the guards abusing the civilians on a daily basis.

Although, for the sake of transparency i will also say that the canonical nature for the novels towards the comic series has been kinda up for debate within the Walking Dead community, due to conflciting Word of Saint Paul information and several contradictions in the novels themselves, so that’s probably why I held off speaking about the novels here. So If you want me to expand on that I could

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Sep 14th 2023 at 10:44:00 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25897: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:46:24 AM

If Wangfa keeps, it's by the skin of his teeth. But overall, I've seen just about every possible nasty villain from this series proposed, so so many of these guys have just blended together for me

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#25898: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:47:27 AM

[up] That is fair. Although this is (debatably) in the comic universe so we aren’t dealing with omnicidal Maniacs and lynchers like Maddox and Jeremiah, nor dealing with the likes of Simon, Lance, The CRM ect.

Would it be okay to just refresh and put in the other villains for the heinous standard?

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Sep 14th 2023 at 10:50:21 AM

Malginel Since: Aug, 2023
#25899: Sep 14th 2023 at 7:51:01 AM

~@ACW Odium is worse, but he's a literal God whose been around for thousands of years and commands a massive army. Telsin has a well funded criminal conspiracy with some help, but not that much, from a god, and is on a time-crunch. Straff Venture has less resources and was going to let Luthadel get burned to the ground by Koloss, but Luthadel wasn't as big of a city, being a medieval city whose destruction would be bad, but not completely world shattering, versus Elendel, a sprawling industrial metropolis whose destruction would be society-shattering.

There's also Dalinar Kholin burning a whole city to the ground and everyone in it (one of the heroes, tries to atone for that one), but that city was built into a canyon, not a big industrial city. The one might be an issue is Wryn Wulfden the IV (probable CM but his arc isn't done in a series that has a history of giving unsympathetic villains something redeeming. I'm watching him though) plotting a genocide of two countries, Arelon and Teod, but he's the emperor of a gigantic empire that dominates the region their in, and given that the setting is more medieval, population numbers are probably lower. Also Telsin has help from a god, but Wyrn is also implied to have help from a god, further implied to even also be Autonomy. The best contrast between the two is that Telsin is on the clock and has to succeed, possibly cutting corners. By contrast, Wyrn is not the one doing that, his subordinate Hrathen is, acting on a rather similar time constraint, imposed by Wyrn. Finally Wyrn has many countries under his control, wiping out Arelon and Teod is obviously really bad, but wouldn't collapse the region Wyrn is in. Telsin would wipe out half the Basin's population and has no issue with further societal collapse.

Telsin does have a bit of an advantage as her story is set in a more modern time with a higher population count, but the established standard for characters that are not gods is mass destruction. The cosmeres standard has plenty of destructive schemes but it's not completely jacked. So even once the other cosmere stories come out with more villains in higher population eras, Telsin will still meet baseline in all likelihood.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25900: Sep 14th 2023 at 8:32:57 AM

Hmm, seems like all three can stay.

Meeting baseline isn't the problem; it's meeting the specific franchise standard. Like, there are many Criminal Minds baddies who easily exceed baseline, but don't count because that specific work has such a high standard.


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