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Complete Monster Proposal Thread

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Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Don't delete an EP unless you intend to swiftly repost it. We know that there are reasons why you might want to delete an EP, especially if it's being downvoted - rejection is hard, even in a low-stakes environment like this. However, deleting it renders the current discussion null and void, makes it impossible to reference the discussion in the future and can confuse tropers who didn't read it before the deletion. If the issue is temporary (such as formatting problems or a post getting overlooked as the thread moves on), then deleting and quickly reposting the EP is a valid option, but to fully retract an EP, please use the [[strike:]] markup instead.

  4. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  5. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  6. 'If a work is already reserved by another user , please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  7. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  8. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  9. If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  10. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.

Are they bad enough?

A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:

  • Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
  • The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
  • The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)

Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 12th 2024 at 3:13:36 PM

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#25751: Sep 12th 2023 at 5:06:08 PM

Okay, this effortpost was a joint collaboration between me and Siegfried 1337. Big thanks for your help, Siegfried.

What is the work?

Kamen Rider Geats is the fourth Reiwa era Kamen Rider installment. The plot is centered around a game known as the "Desire Grand Prix", where selected players become Riders to fight monsters known as Jyamato. Whoever wins the game gets the world rewritten in accordance with their desire. The reigning champion of the game is Ace Ukiyo aka the titular Kamen Rider Geats, who believes there is more to the DGP than it seems and has dedicated himself to uncovering the game's truth.

Who is the villain?

Suel is the executive producer of the Desire Grand Prix and the true true Big Bad of the series. Suel hails from the far future, in which humanity has progressed to the point where all new humans are artificially designed rather than born naturally and live out lifespans that have been predetermined for them. As such, Suel created the DGP, which involves time traveling to different past time periods and using them as settings for the game, to entertain his future audience and give them something exciting to watch in an otherwise uneventful life. He's also the one behind the disappearance of Ace's mom and thus his whole reason for participating in the DGP.

What does he do?

In the past, Suel discovered that Mitsume, one of his employees, was a Reality Warper after she was somehow able to conceive a child with a human from a past time period, something that should have been physically impossible for her to do. As such, Suel forced her to abandon her child and forcibly transformed her into a statue-like form in order to harness her reality-warping powers, dubbing her the "Goddess of Creation." To keep Mitsume's powers fueled, Suel feeds her a never-ending stream of the desires of those who perished in the DGP.

In the present, Suel spends the first three-fifths of the series inexplicably absent, with his subordinate Niramu acting as the producer of the current season of the DGP, before showing up during the second half to shut down a Jyamato uprising against the DGP management led by the DGP sponsor Beroba and move the game into another timeline in a process known as the "Grand End." To distract the remaining Kamen Riders while he finishes the preparations for the Grand End, Suel organizes a game called the "Desire Royale" and falsely promises that whichever Rider wins it will have their desire granted.

By this point though Ace has discovered what the DGP is doing to his mom and tries to free her, leading Suel to attempt to force Mitsume to erase her own son as a demonstration of his control over her. When Mitsume resists, Suel resolves to simply dispose of Mitsume in the Grand End and transfer her powers to Tsumuri, who he secretly created to be Mitsume's replacement as Goddess of Creation. This however is enough to get Niramu to object to Suel's plans, so Suel has Niramu's assistant Samas kill him and take his place as producer. However, Ace is able to reawaken his own creation powers and use them to halt the Grand End and save Tsumuri from the DGP's clutches.

During the final arc, Genesis, Suel decides to manipulate from afar by creating Zitt to act as his proxy, becoming the de facto game master and takes advantage of Daichi sowing chaos with the Parasitic Jyamato by dividing the riders one by one, such as fighting against Ace and Hareruya. Once Keiwa approaches Zitt to revive all the people killed during the DGP, he proceeds to grant that wish after Keiwa hands over Tsumuri to attempt to turn her into another Goddess of Creation much like Mitsume, but twists it in a horrific way- this includes every horrible human being to exist, resulting in massive chaos spreading throughout the world and going against Keiwa's idea of world peace.

And to make matters worse, in spite of all this, Sara including her family was killed again by one of the Gang Riders, causing Keiwa to approach Zitt again, and this time, to not only revive all the good people killed by the DGP, but also make sure that world peace is achieved this time. Zitt accepts, but on one condition- since Ace Ukiyo is the only thing preventing Tsumuri from turning into a full-fledged Goddess of Creation, he must be killed. Keiwa accepts and attempts to kill Ace. Meanwhile, Zitt introduces Tsumuri to the VI Ps who wish to bring the end of the world because it's so entertaining to them. As they are watching Na-go and Da·Paan fight each other, Zitt tells them to enjoy the "Apocalypse Game" accidentally created by Keiwa's wish. After that, he sends message to Geats to come to Kuramu Park to witness the final round of the Apocalypse Game, which involves him fighting against Keiwa.

Meanwhile, Zitt grabs a teardrop from Tsumuri crying when she witnesses the fight between Keiwa and Ace, which he later uses to create a knockoff of her, the Goddess of Destruction, but not before being nearly being manhandled by Hareruya who then frees Tsumuri and causes her to escape and later hand her powers as the Goddess of Creation to Ace, allowing him to reset the world before Keiwa made his wish. Furious at this, Zitt then proceeds to instigate the Bad End game, which involves the destruction of the whole world so that the DGP can go to another era where the DGP doesn't exist yet to provide more twisted entertainment for their audience. Said game also allows the Sponsors to wreak havoc, allowing Kekera and Beroba to attempt to overtake the Tree of Knowledge so that it can become a Jyamato- an act, if it success, would lead to the deaths of those trapped inside of it.

After Beroba is killed by Michinaga, Kekera kidnaps the same family taken hostage during the Scheme arc and Zitt broadcasts the kidnapping to the world. After Daichi stops the Jyamato from killing the family (it's complicated), Keiwa proceeds to defeat Kekera and finishes him off with Bujin Sword. Not long after this, upon seeing that Ace's willpower has allowed him to break free from his chains as a God of Creation, Zitt uses the Zillion Driver to transform into the Enforcer of Violence, Kamen Rider Regad, to attempt to put him in his place, but fails. Determined that he no longer as any meaning, Zitt is reabsorbed back to Suel.

Suel then decides to hold one final DGP round in which he tempts hundreds of people to become Riders with the promise of getting their desire granted and then forces them to fight each other to the death, having any who refuse erased from existence. When Ace interferes, Suel has Black Tsumuri possess Tsumuri and force her to shoot Ace. Luckily though, this doesn't kill Ace but instead causes him to have a Jesus moment and ascend to godhood, allowing him to re-empower his fellow heroic Riders and together with them kill Suel for good.

Heinous Standard

Suel is the Big Bad so he sets it for the show. Any death that occurs within the DGP, be it from the Jyamato or one of the Riders, is all part of the game that Suel constructed. Not to mention, him attempting to force Mitsume to erase her own son and him forcing hundreds if not thousands of people to fight and kill each other in the final arc are easily enough to put him across the baseline as far as the franchise goes.

Mitigating Factors

Suel created the DGP to entertain the denizens of the future, but he doesn't have any good intentions behind what he does. As the show goes on, he's gradually exposed as a hypocrite and a Control Freak who reformats the DGP into a Darker and Edgier Sadist Show purely to suit his own tastes and the tastes of his select circle of Squid Game-esque VIPs. It gets to the point where other members of the DGP management eventually turn against Suel because he's perverted the DGP from the show about saving the world that it originally was (in a not so subtle jab at the Kamen Rider franchise's "adult" spin-offs).

Final Verdict

He's basically Shinichiro Shirakura as a Toku villain, so of course he's qualifies. Joking aside, Suel isn't that complex of a character. He's definitely a [tup].

The only other villain in Geats who potentially qualifies for CM is Beroba, who is probably the only character who's more sadistic than Suel. However, there's an upcoming special in which she appears, so there's a teensy chance she'll get a mitigating quality in that special (probably not, but just to be safe I'll wait).

Just imagine something here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25752: Sep 12th 2023 at 5:13:06 PM

[tup]Suel

I think only the second for Yoshitsugu Matsuoka (aka Kirito) after Freed salzeen from High School D×D

Edited by miraculous on Sep 12th 2023 at 5:52:16 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25753: Sep 12th 2023 at 5:56:38 PM

I'll read the EP tomorrow, but do we need to compare him to the other Reiwa era keepers?

AgentofChaos41 Introduce a little anarchy from Chaos... duh Since: Dec, 2022
Introduce a little anarchy
#25754: Sep 12th 2023 at 6:20:43 PM

[tup] to Tenpenny.

~~Agentof Chaosreporting~~
Orangutans Since: May, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#25756: Sep 12th 2023 at 7:33:10 PM

@ACW I don’t think so.

Azu has one (indirect) kill to her name and while she aimed to kill many more people, she lacked the means to do so and was nowhere near close to achieving her goal. Her goal hole plan was basically a Gambit Roulette that fizzled out after she ran out of luck.

Orteca and Vail are both explicitly shown killing people and are implied to have killed more. They also stand out for committing most of their kills on their own, and because they lack the resources the other major villains in the show had.

Agariyama also has a fairly big implied body count by Revice’s standards, considering all the demonic mutants we see, but it’s nowhere near as big as Suel’s.

The only Reiwa era villain who compares to Suel would be Isaac, who has an implied body count in the hundreds of thousands. Suel however has an implied body count that’s much higher, considering how the DGP was in operation for a very long time, and he’s seen committing more explicit crimes like the Duel to the Death round he forces civilians to participate in at the end.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Sep 12th 2023 at 7:33:57 AM

Just imagine something here.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#25757: Sep 12th 2023 at 9:23:01 PM

I think ACW said this already but given that, I feel more inclined to cut the others rather than simply approve this guy.

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#25758: Sep 12th 2023 at 10:35:19 PM

[up][up] Huh? It's been years since I watched Zero One but I'm 100% sure Azu is responsible for all the chaos that happens in the final Story Arc of the show—she was pretty damn close to achieving her goal, Aruto himself has a vision of the entirety of Japan being destroyed by Azu's machinations.

Haven't watched the other Reiwa shows—not really into tokusatsu anymore—so I'm not familiar with the other baddies.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 12th 2023 at 2:38:40 PM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#25759: Sep 12th 2023 at 10:52:27 PM

I'm gonna wait on the above candidate until the conversation is sorted out.

I have another Magic: The Gathering candidate and one I've been watching for a while. I think I could have done a successful effort post before now, but the most recent set featured this character as part of the Big Bad Ensemble and their actions there solidify them. Let's discuss one of the most enigmatic Planeswalkers in all of Magic: the Nightmare Weaver.

Who is Ashiok?

Ashiok is a formerly human Planeswalker of indeterminate gender who has powers over nightmares and is obsesses with the concept of fear. A terrifying being of nightmares with half their face gone and emanating smoky shadows, Ashiok seeks to create the perfect embodiment of fear and so uses their power to create horrific nightmares in their victims that can incite them to madness and violence. Ashiok can even turn these nightmares into living beings under their command that they can and often do use to slaughter victims in the waking world. Ashiok was drawn to the Greek myth inspired plane of Theros as they were fascinated by the sheer power belief has on the plane and the effects it can have on both mortals and gods. Ashiok believed that if belief in the gods held power, then fear of the gods would hold even greater power.

Ashiok made a deal with Phenax, god of deceit, to destroy the city of Iretis so Phenax could turn it into a city of the dead. Ashiok took the form of the king's advisor while Iretis was trying to make peace with the Leonin lion men. They created nightmares from the city's citizens and used them to murder people from both groups, eventually inciting violence that led to the Leonin slaughtering everyone in the city. Ashiok also personally oversaw that the king himself fall into despair, gouge out his eyes, and finally commit suicide. With their half of the bargain fulfilled, Ashiok asked for Phenax to make them invisible to the gods of Theros. Now invisible to the gods, Ashiok began an experiment and spreaded nightmares throughout the major cities until the people's fear formed a new god named Cacophony, which was quickly slain by another god. Undetected themselves, Ashiok considered the experiment a success and moved on to their grand design.

Ashiok slowly began spreading what become known on Theros as the Sleeping Curse. This Curse caused its victims nightmares so horrific they would be driven into violent frenzies and lash out as those nearby. This combined with the fatigue caused by very few willing to fall asleep out of fear led to entire villages being wiped out. Magic users were hit particularly hard as they would fall asleep and their nightmares would cause them to go on magical rampages to eventually awake from their homes and a trail of destruction left behind them. Ashiok was so skilled in his craft that they could even send nightmares to the dead down in the underworld and torment their very souls with unending horror. Regardless of how they did it, Ashiok sought to spread enough fear throughout Theros to finally give them enough power to send everyone on the plane into an unending slumber where they could torture them with their worst nightmares for all eternity.

This sleep curse was eventually foiled by another Planeswalker aided by a god and an army of the dead, and Ashiok was forced to look off Theros to find a new source of nightmares. While mentally torturing the soul of dead Planeswalker Elspeth, they witnessed a vision of a Phyrexian in her nightmares and was captivated by its terrifying but hauntingly beautiful design. They planeswalked to New Phyrexia and entered the dreams of Elesh Norn herself and tried giving the White Praetor nightmares of a failed compleation, and ultimately succeeded in driving Norn mad with fear by showing her a vision of Elspeth wearing Norn's armor. Ashiok's nightmare proved to the catalyst for Norn launching her multiversal conquest as explained in her effort post. Ashiok would later appear before Elspeth and taunt her about their own role in the current catastrophe.

After the Phyrexian invasion was foiled, the story last month moved back to the fairy tale/Arthurian inspired plane of Eldraine. Three witches had put a sleeping curse on the plane to help defeat the invasion, but they decided to keep it going to consolidate their own power. With many of the plane's civilizations nearly ruined during the invasions, the survivors weren't prepared for many of their own to begin falling asleep without end. The lead witch Eriette formed an alliance with Ashiok when he arrived to plane to take advantage of the curse. Ashiok was skilled in directly controlling the sleepers and used them and living nightmares to begin hunting down and killing those still awake. Ashiok intended to keep doing this until he could make Eldraine like he wanted to make Theros. The native Planeswalker twins Will and Rowan Kenrith waged war against the witches and defeated them and Ashiok during the set's story. Ashiok would take glee in forcing the twins to fight their own cursed citizens, but is eventually forced to flee when he takes an icicle through the chest courtesy of Will. However, the last part of the set's story chapters sees Ashiok rescuing Eriette from prison to take her off to some far off plane for the Nightmare Weaver's future plans.

Heinous standard?

Ashiok arguably already hit it a while back with their trying to put an entire plane's worth of people into eternal torturous nightmares, but the simple fact that they are trying to do the same thing on another plane just solidifies them hitting Magic's heinous standard.

Mitigating factors?

None. Ashiok is a stone cold psychopath that takes sadistic pleasure in causing the worst possible nightmares to their victims to revel in their fears.

Final verdict?

Ashiok is one I've had my eyes on for a while, but the most recent set unambiguously qualifies them as this. They are being set up as a major antagonist in the upcoming story arc alongside Tezzeret, but I'm calling it now that Ashiok is an easy keeper.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#25761: Sep 12th 2023 at 11:14:53 PM

Yes to Suel and yes to Ashiok for now at least.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#25762: Sep 12th 2023 at 11:46:29 PM

@Beast: I don’t think anything Catalina did in San Andreas really made her stand out. The SPANK drug is the one thing that could make her count but a “few” junkies turned suicide bombers isn’t enough for me. Maybe if she planed to do that to the whole city?

@SumDumNerd: Based on what you wrote I’m leaning towards no keepers, too.

Abstain on Suel because even after reading the EP I've have no idea what happend in the story. All these names and characters mentioned just left me confused.

[tup] for Ashiok

Maxide Since: May, 2023
#25763: Sep 12th 2023 at 11:58:41 PM

[tup] to Tenpenny and Liu Yu.

Regarding Tenpenny, given that he's been around as long as he has and is just now about to make it onto the list, were there any specific arguments up to this point for him NOT qualifying as a CM?

ultimate_life_form Since: Aug, 2019
#25764: Sep 13th 2023 at 12:09:00 AM

Not heinous enough given the jacked up standards of other characters from GTA.

Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#25765: Sep 13th 2023 at 12:14:59 AM

[up][up][up] To simplify things: Suel makes DGP. DGP is a competition that escalates from friendly competition to violent battle royale thanks to his machinations. If DGP's secret is discovered, Grand End restarts the world, which has been implied to have happened hundreds of times. Finds out one of his employees Mitsume has god powers, so he petrifies her to harness her powers, and to keep her powers working, fuels her with desires of people killed in the DGP. Intervenes when Beroba attempts takeover of DGP because it resulted in the whole world knowing about the DGP by kickstarting the Grand End. When an attempt to have Mitsume erase her own son doesn't work, Suel leaves her behind to be erased in the Grand End, ends up biting him back since her son Ace now has god powers. Creates a proxy called Zitt to create the Apocalypse Game in which Gang Riders create anarchy for his VIPs to enjoy. When Ace resets world to undo the Apocalypse Game's damage, Zitt instigates the Bad End game in which Sponsors can create chaos and bloodshed. When Zitt fails to kill Ace, Suel reabsorbs him and instigates a final DGP which has him end the world, has evil Tsumuri possess good Tsumuri and shoot Ace. Ends up biting him again when Ace ascends and destroys him from the insides.

That's all the info I could compress into what happened in the story.

Edited by Siegfried1337 on Sep 13th 2023 at 12:15:04 PM

Eh, good enough.
ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#25766: Sep 13th 2023 at 12:23:44 AM

@Klavice Resource level plays an important factor. Orteca and Vail had comparatively low resources compared to the other villains in their show, but still caused a lot of deaths in spite of it. Isaac had much more destructive aims than Suel, as his plan was to remake the world into one where humans suffer perpetually. It's also worth noting that Saber and Revice take place in separate settings with different power levels for their characters, so judging Revice villains based on the power levels in Geats doesn't make much sense.

@TheMadCr0w I'd rather not debate this right now so I'll only say this and be done, but Azu's plan was basically just to get Aruto and Horobi to both use Ark Drivers to fight each other and hope a massive war broke out. All it does it result in a Humagear protest that briefly gets out of hand, but is very quickly deescalated independently of Aruto and Horobi's fight. The vision Aruto sees is of the world Azu wants to bring about, but it's not an indicator of the factors that were actually at play during the final arc.

Just imagine something here.
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#25767: Sep 13th 2023 at 12:47:32 AM

[tup] to Ashiok

Aren’t all Kamen Rider seasons in their own continuity? I don’t see why we should compare Suel with keepers from other shows.

Edit: [tup] to Suel by the way

Edited by EmperorGeode on Sep 13th 2023 at 12:54:00 PM

Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#25768: Sep 13th 2023 at 12:53:01 AM

[up] That's the point- We shouldn't be comparing certain candidates to other CMs from other seasons, because they are on their separate continuity, which Klavice claims which is not the case.

Eh, good enough.
finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#25769: Sep 13th 2023 at 2:03:29 AM

[tup] Suel. Only the Showa seasons of Kamen Rider share a continuity, so no need to compare him to anyone outside of Geats.

Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Sep 13th 2023 at 5:05:47 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25770: Sep 13th 2023 at 3:29:36 AM

[tup]Ashiok

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25771: Sep 13th 2023 at 4:15:31 AM

Leaning yes to Suel. Is everything Zitt does attributable to Suel, like Palpatine and Snoke?

Yes to Ashiok.

Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Calabash.
#25772: Sep 13th 2023 at 5:12:06 AM

[up] Yep, it's exactly what it sounds like.

Eh, good enough.
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#25773: Sep 13th 2023 at 6:54:30 AM

[tup] to Ashiok

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009

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