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Duplicate Trope: Scoundrel Code

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Deadlock Clock: Jan 9th 2023 at 11:59:00 PM
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#1: Jan 5th 2023 at 4:05:37 PM

I think Scoundrel Code and Honor Among Thieves are the same trope: Lawbreakers who have their own codes of honor they adhere to. I could not find any meaningful distinction between the two. I think they should be merged into a single trope.

Both tropes refer to lawbreakers of all sorts (not just thieves), but the name Scoundrel Code makes that more explicit, and for that reason I prefer it. However, moving everything to that name would be more work (Scoundrel Code has 80 wicks while Honor Among Thieves has 475).

Sandbox.Scoundrel Code Wick Check

Edited by Eievie on Jan 5th 2023 at 4:06:00 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#2: Jan 5th 2023 at 5:07:26 PM

Changed the thread tag to point to one trope for convenience's sake.

Macron's notes
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3: Jan 5th 2023 at 5:15:17 PM

Favoring merging Scoundrel Code with Honor Among Thieves. We probably can't do in reverse without wick checking Honor Among Thieves as well.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#4: Jan 5th 2023 at 6:26:35 PM

According to its description, Honor Among Thieves is not (as its Laconic regrettably says) "Lawbreakers with their own laws", but about natural camaraderie among fellow petty criminals that can lead to unexpected loyalty.

Meanwhile Scoundrel Code is a code of conduct that can apply to fellow criminals but also to their conduct regarding their victims (like a no rape / kill rule, or a "don't steal from X family" rule).

I feel there's enough distinction there?

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5: Jan 5th 2023 at 6:47:28 PM

Taking back the vote temprarily. Scoundrel Code Wick Check (now considering the other TRS being closed early for uncooked wick check...) said there's a lot of overlap and Scoundrel Code mentions "Compare Honor Among Thieves, which is a genuine moral code", so I may have misread.

I agree there's a distinction between "criminals with rules" and "criminals forming Family of Choice or just holding others to higher standard". Had another idea regarding that, but it would need Honor Among Thieves gets a wick check of its own.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#6: Jan 5th 2023 at 6:58:35 PM

I asked for how I was supposed to do a wick check for a duplicate trope, and never really got a clear answer (although I did get multiple people chiming in with various contradicting answers). One thing I was definitely told, though, is that I was only supposed to do a wick check for one, the one with fewer wicks.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#7: Jan 5th 2023 at 7:01:45 PM

[up] Well, you could do both, at least as far as I've heard. I'm the wrong person to ask though because I've never done a Duplicate Trope thread and didn't get a clear answer when I asked, so maybe ask someone who has done a Duplicate Trope thread.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#8: Jan 5th 2023 at 7:03:08 PM

The issue is that there's really no specific way to do a wick check for a duplicate trope. The answers we gave were just the various ways you could do it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#9: Jan 5th 2023 at 7:08:40 PM

[up][up][up]C'mon Eievie. You asked several different times and amongst others, I specifically told you how to perform a wick check on duplicate tropes, with a link to an example.

For this thread in particular, I even said that while doing just the check on Scoundrel Code is probably enough, "it kinda depends on what you find" and to "stay flexible. Don't try to fit the wick check to fit something you've already decided."

That last sentence being relevant now, since it seems like there is actually a difference b/w these two tropes.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jan 5th 2023 at 10:09:07 AM

Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#10: Jan 5th 2023 at 7:39:19 PM

You gave me answers, sure, but so did other people. Is your word the definitive end-all-be-all? If so, I had no way to know that.

I got several answers about duplicate tropes, and they weren't very consistent, and (most importantly) but none of them really made much sense to me, or gave me a clear idea of what I was supposed to demonstrate with wicks. I get that I was told, but none of those "being tolds" successfully conveyed clear instructions to me. I knew I'd get in trouble for being obtuse if I kept asking, so I went ahead and tried, but I didn't really know what it was supposed to be so it ended up like that. The main takeaway I had is that I don't think wick checks are really the best tool for working with with duplicate tropes.

I get that I was told, but I was told a lot of things, and none of them were very clear. Can I please request that different editors get together and write up some agreed upon overview of what a duplicate trope wick check is supposed to be, so that next time around the person in my spot isn't getting conflicting advise from different people and left confused in the middle?

Edited by Eievie on Jan 5th 2023 at 7:50:57 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#11: Jan 5th 2023 at 8:06:46 PM

Again, like I keep saying, there isn't one consistent method of these things. Everyone has a different style. Different tropes might have different needs, and different tropers will find certain ways easier or harder than others. So writing up a specific guideline isn't possible — wick checks in general are pretty casual about how they're done as long as the basic rules (must be random, must check 50, must show clear usage patterns) are followed. We were giving you advice the best we could, but in a circumstance like this you really do just sort of have to come up with your own way of doing it.

The issue here isn't that you did the check wrong, it's that your thesis does require checking the other trope.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 5th 2023 at 11:07:55 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
GastonRabbit MOD C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#12: Jan 6th 2023 at 5:08:25 AM

Clocking until Honor Among Thieves has a wick check.

I got a rock for Halloween.
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#13: Jan 7th 2023 at 2:31:18 AM

[up][up]Then the problem is that there wasn't enough guidance for how to decide what advice to follow and what advice was irrelevant, not simply that they followed the wrong advice. Though it seems like the real problem is that Eievie's threads should have been taken to Trope Talk first (perhaps the Duplicate Tropes thread there) to get input as to whether the tropes really are as similar as they thought or if there were nuances they were missing, which would have also informed how a usage check should be performed.

Edited by MorganWick on Jan 7th 2023 at 2:36:06 AM

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#14: Jan 10th 2023 at 1:39:10 AM

Clock expired, so locking.

I got a rock for Halloween.
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