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Does sinkhole policy cover Stinger?

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Kuruni (Long Runner)
#1: Jan 3rd 2023 at 12:11:20 AM

I made this ATT query yesterday.

In short, is it alright to pothole to completely irrelevant work in The Stinger for random joke's sake? I think Sinkhole cover that, but people are surprisingly fine with making pothole The Lion King (1994) to Cthulhu Mythos' Stinger.

Edited by Kuruni on Jan 4th 2023 at 3:11:38 AM

Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#2: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:35:48 AM

I swear we had a similar discussion last year except it was about sinkholes in image captions (some sort of Fan Myopia joke thing I think) and it was decided that no, potholes otherwise irrelevant to the work were not okay.

I think this is the same situation and don't see how a sinkhole adds anything of value to the page. Though I'm biased, I don't like page stingers in general. *shrug*

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#3: Jan 3rd 2023 at 6:37:07 AM

Stingers are just a joke or a bit of fluff tacked onto a page, so sinkholes in them are far less problematic than in other parts of a page that actually have meaning.

MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#4: Jan 3rd 2023 at 8:52:42 AM

I'm with Willbyr. A myopic joke in a caption can hurt the page, but a myopic joke in a stinger is entirely ignorable. I have no particular allegiance to page stingers, but I also don't see much point in organizing a cleanup.

regulation pigeon
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5: Jan 3rd 2023 at 8:55:46 AM

While I agree on captions, for stingers as long as it's partially relevant to the page it's fine by me. If it wasn't, we would have no Visual Pun images.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 3rd 2023 at 11:15:01 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6: Jan 3rd 2023 at 12:09:16 PM

Yeah, I'm not strongly attached to stingers, but I'm also somewhat opposed to any cleanup effort that sees harmless dumb jokes as worth going after. Especially since these jokes are all the way at the bottom and are very easy to overlook. While I wouldn't find most of them funny, I don't think they need to be cut or anything.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
MsOranjeDiscoDancer 2much2furious from the Saja Boys' last performance! Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
2much2furious
#7: Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:51:05 PM

keep them. i know "we are not wikipedia" is old hat but we are not wikipedia and i never understood how minor jokes (like this and The One With jokes) shut out "non-American tropers" or w/e

it isnt like theyre troper tales.

i may be dead inside but at least i have Mystery :,)
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#8: Jan 3rd 2023 at 6:34:34 PM

Potholes to works that are being quoted or referenced are (in most circumstances) not Sinkholes. These are the kinds of potholes which are banned in page quotes, but are allowed in image captions and stingers.

As the stinger on Cthulhu Mythos is referencing a song from The Lion King (1994), the latter work is not completely irrelevant.

The problem is rather that such potholes are often linked to referential jokes, which frequently come with one or both of the following problems:

  • Referential jokes are only funny if the reader recognizes the work that is being referenced. If the reader needs the pothole to know which work is being referenced, then the joke has already failed.
  • Many "funny references" are not even trying to make an original joke, but are just quoting a line from another work. So in the best of cases, they simply reproduce a joke that somebody else made elsewhere. However, what made a line funny in its original context or presentation does not necessarily carry over into a quote. Thus, we frequently get "jokes" that are only funny to people who are already familiar with the joke in its original context (which in effect means they aren't funny to anybody).

For a case study, let's look at the stinger that sparked this discussion ("Cthulhu fhtagn... what a wonderful phrase..."). As ilovewildkratts1 has thankfully pointed out, the line is actually from a Filk Song by Tom Smith (song here), which itself parodies "Hakuna Matata" from The Lion King.

The stinger was there, without a pothole, for several years until a troper who apparently felt the line needed an explanation, and recognized the reference to "Hakuna Matata", potholed the stinger to The Lion King. Probably they did not know that the line was a quote from an existing song, or else they would have potholed the line to Tom Smith. They may have thought the original contributor of the stinger was just throwing out an idea for a parody song that could be funny (if it only existed).

Kuruni then removed the pothole the first time; but two days ago today it was restored by Yukianesa who also added a second line from the Filk song in blue all-caps ("Cthulhu fhtagn... AIN'T NO PASSIN' CRAZE!"). (That latter pothole to Go Mad from the Revelation is a genuine Sinkhole, by the way). Obviously they knew the Tom Smith song, but nevertheless potholed to The Lion King, the work referenced by Tom Smith, rather than to Tom Smith, whose song was being quoted.

Here you can see some of the problems of referential stingers. Not only may the reader not know which work is being quoted, they may not even understand that the line is a quote. Referencing a parody or fan work that references another well-known work necessarily results in many readers only seeing the reference to the well-known work.

Now several posters have argued for keeping the pothole to The Lion King; but why not pothole the entire line to Tom Smith rather? Isn't the Filk Song that is being directly quoted more relevant than the work that provided the model for the Filk Song?

Of course, in any case the stinger does not capture the essence of the joke it is trying to reproduce. The song is moderately funny; what makes the song fun to listen to doesn't carry over into reading one isolated line of it, without context and without music. The stinger relies on you being familiar with the song, and if you're familiar with the song, you've heard the joke already. It's the mere shadow of a joke.

Edited by LordGro on Jan 3rd 2023 at 3:38:01 PM

Kuruni (Long Runner)
#9: Jan 3rd 2023 at 7:33:28 PM

why not pothole the entire line to Tom Smith rather?

For me, it's because I've no idea, I will change it after this post. And yes, the completely lacking of context for Stinger is a problem.

Edited by Kuruni on Jan 3rd 2023 at 10:33:42 PM

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#10: Jan 4th 2023 at 5:08:37 AM

I would say pothole "Cthulhu fhtaghn" to Tom Smith and the rest of the line to The Lion King as the pothole readers might expect to be there.

LordGro (Old as dirt)
#11: Jan 4th 2023 at 3:23:32 PM

^ This is what we call "chained potholes", and it's discouraged by Administrivia.Sinkhole.

The reader has no clue there are multiple links there. If they do discover all the links, it is a pain following all the links. Don't do this, please.

For the record, I don't think the stinger needs to be potholed. If you don't know the song, or who Tom Smith is, then the pothole will leave you none the wiser. Readers should not be expected to research references they do not understand.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#12: Jan 4th 2023 at 3:25:09 PM

But not having the pothole will make people think the joke was made up by TVT (and that it's a Lion King reference).

Anyway, why are we debating on that one specific stinger right now? This thread is about the policy as a whole and if these stingers are technically against the rules, not about the merits of the one specific joke.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#13: Jan 4th 2023 at 3:48:26 PM

Well, that is the example that started the discussion, as is detailed in the opening post.

Of course, the thread title is also wrongly chosen because the example-that-started-it is not strictly a Sinkhole issue. The sinkhole policy is universal; it applies to stingers just as everyhwere else. The question is rather, when is potholing a work under a work reference useful and when is it just a distraction?

But not having the pothole will make people think the joke was made up by TVT (and that it's a Lion King reference).
That can't be helped, and it is a Lion King reference.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#14: Jan 4th 2023 at 3:54:13 PM

It's a reference to a song that's a reference to TLK, but it's still meant to be a reference to the Filk Song.

And yes, I know that the example started this, I was part of the ATT discussion. But this is meant to be about policy in general, not to continue the debate over the specific stinger.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#15: Jan 5th 2023 at 4:14:44 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#16: Jan 5th 2023 at 4:22:27 PM

Eh? I did. I argued that I don't see stingers as problematic, and that I don't particularly care about their jokes but also don't think they're worth fighting against. Before you came in, that was my only post in this thread.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 5th 2023 at 7:23:18 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#17: Jan 5th 2023 at 4:34:42 PM

OP's question was specifically about potholing in stingers, not about stingers in themselves.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#18: Jan 5th 2023 at 4:36:09 PM

The potholes are part of the joke. If you remove them then there's no reason to even have these stingers. Ergo, my acceptance of the stingers was also meant to be read as my acceptance of the potholes, following the logic of the posts above me.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#19: Jan 5th 2023 at 4:37:44 PM

To answer that, potholing, is okay. I'd say even needed to explain the joke and if it's a quote it's proper to tell where it's from.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 5th 2023 at 3:38:07 PM

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LordGro (Old as dirt)
#20: Jan 6th 2023 at 2:58:41 PM

I guess this discussion has run its course, but my long post above explains why I find neither of these arguments convincing.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#21: Jan 11th 2023 at 3:25:07 PM

Worth noting that we don't seem to have any real guidance about stingers (not just their links) in Administrivia - nothing on How to Create a Work Page or, from what I can see, on TLP Guidelines (or Creating New Pages, for that matter).

(I ended up submitting an ATT on them a while back, when trying to learn more about site customs, as I'd seen them in use but couldn't find the rules anywhere...)

If we have a consensus on sinkholes in stingers, it might be worth adding it - and a bit of wider guidance on stingers - to one of those pages?

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