Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
I'll admit they probably wouldn't have made in the thread's early days. We've definitely skewed downward in the bastard aspect as the trope has evolved and put up way more anti-heroes tha we did in the old days.
Sly Cooper and the gang weren't considered bad enough for the longest time, and I remember having to help fight for Ezio Auditore's inclusion.
To be honest, you're not totally out of left field. The threads standards have changed over time, but that's the nature of "Your Mileage May Vary" tropes.
Being YMMV, your opinion isn't technically wrong, it's just more people have different opinions.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Sep 22nd 2023 at 12:02:57 PM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
So moving on I have a slight thing I want to discuss.
Now as co-currator I could get rid of the crossover section on the comic books page and move them to their franchisee pages if that is okay with everyone. The conversation on that kind of died without it being resolved.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Moron
Go for it!
he/him
Franchise feels like a good place for them, as it'll keep them clear of continuity-specific pages.
I'm good for whatevs is intuitive for those keeping the entries going up!
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
I agree as well.
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
Just flagging a page name change for an existing entry that you might already be aware of.
Characters.Creatures Of Grimm needs to be changed to Characters.RWBY Grimm Bestiary in the following example:
- MagnificentBastard.Anime And Manga: "RWBY: The Official Manga" entry.
Late, but I'm going to add to the confusion over FF 16, and in particular Clive. The others I can see - Dion is a servant of The Empire, Jill has some more ruthless and apathetic moments, and Cidolfus is causing mass anarchy on a hunch.
But Clive? Clive is in no way a bastard. Most everyone he meets likes him, he has a strong sense of morals and righteousness, he helps to free slaves from their masters and give them a place to start new lives, and he's caring and compassionate to others. Even at the start of the game when he's at his most bitter and cynical, he's willing to help people by just delivering meals to them. He never takes pleasure or pride in doing unjust things, he doesn't enjoy killing or hurting people, never sets out to do so for its own sake, and is a fairly pleasant and amicable person. The narrative itself doesn't frame his actions as amoral or questionable, he's firmly a Well-Intentioned Extremist who is trying to create a better world and believes in Cid's vision of how to achieve it. Even in his interactions with Annabella, the abusive mother who made him feel like shit and is the one directly responsible for his enslavement and the death of his father and the fall of his kingdom, Clive doesn't seem to even consider hurting her, he just chews her out for what she did to the rest of their family; he's more angry over her betrayal of Elwin and Joshua than how she treated him.
I understand that heroic figures who do morally ambiguous things can qualify for the trope, I've got no problem with it and have EP'd a couple in the past. But Clive really is a low bar for the "bastard" part of the trope. If he qualifies on account of his grey misdeeds, then honestly, a lot of Final Fantasy protagonists ought to be EP'd. Banon and the Returners try to exploit Terra and the Espers to defeat the Empire; Cloud and AVALANCHE bomb mako reactors and slaughter Shinra Troops en masse to save the planet; Squall and SeeD try to assassinate politicians; Zidane and Tantalus are thieves who abduct Alexandria's princess. Cecil is literally The Paladin, and he lies to the Epopts about retrieving their Crystal so he can trade it for his girlfriend's life. Yet I wouldn't call any of them Magnificent Bastards (maybe Barret, in sincerity). So what about Clive in particular got him a pass?
Lizzid people!
Don't really see "other characters like him" as much of an argument tbf.
I'm bringing them up to demonstrate how loose the "bastard" part of the trope is if Clive qualifies. Because it seems like the trope definition now, looking at the page, is simply "any character who is charismatic, driven, and does amoral things".
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Sep 23rd 2023 at 11:41:54 AM
Lizzid people!
I... have to disagree here. We have since had it be where a character committing morally grey acts like the instance of one starting a fire.
Like I don't really see the issue here?
"Starting a fire in a town to cause a distraction" is an extremely low bar to qualify as a Bastard.
Lizzid people!
Except for the fact it was more or less stated that civilians could get injured during it. Hence the grey area.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I fail to see how "set a fire that could hurt civilians" is not morally grey enough personality. Clive is fine in my opinion.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
That's still a very low bar. Again, it sounds like "any character who does amoral things" could qualify. There's a difference between "start a fire knowing that it will hurt people" and "start a fire not caring if it might hurt people."
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Sep 23rd 2023 at 11:58:07 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I fail to see how it is a low bar. The guy set a fire in a populated town as a destination that could hurt Innocents. If was just him hurting bad guys sure but the fact that he is willing to potentially hurt innocents is not a low bar in my opinion.
I really don't see much difference. They both require him to be willing to start a fire he knows might hurt a bunch of innocent people.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 23rd 2023 at 2:06:54 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Let me put it this way - in Kingdom Hearts II, Sora kills Heartless knowing that the Organization is harvesting the hearts he frees for their plans, but resolves that he can't simply stop fighting Heartless because of that. He shows no empathy towards the members of the Organization and callously dismisses them at multiple points when they espouse that they just want hearts of their own to be complete people again. He also shows excitement at the idea of joining Jack Sparrow to be a pirate and heartily embraces his lifestyle when in Port Royal, and helps Mulan lie about her identity to Shang so she can join his army.
From what I'm hearing, these acts mean Sora qualifies as a bastard and could be EP'd.
The Moron
As I said yesterday, if you have a character you want to propose, just go ahead to the proposal thread and make your case - but can we please not do the old song and dance that one example we disagree with means that the entire trope is decaying, losing its definition, or lowering the bar too far?
I'm doing that "song and dance" for the first time because it's what I'm seeing and reading here.
And I'm certainly not going to EP Sora, because he doesn't qualify for the trope and neither does Clive.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Sep 23rd 2023 at 12:17:32 PM
Lizzid people!
Then I see no point in this discussion to be blunt. Just complaining about how our criteria evolved with the time.
Edited by AustinDR on Sep 23rd 2023 at 12:19:26 PM
The Moron
Then to be frank, you're making a bad faith argument. There are ways to disagree with a certain character without going down the slippery slope that it means the entire trope is falling. Like I said, if you think that's the case and want to propose people as a result, the MB Proposal thread can always use more participants. As it is now, Clive appears to set a fire knowing it could hurt innocent people (I don't know the work so I'm only going off of what's being said), which is pretty cleanly amoral enough to qualify here. We have things like kids shows where the MB is plotting to steal chocolate milk, this isn't like CM where the bar to clear is incredibly high. If that means you believe the trope is suffering, that's your prerogative, but the definition and how we use it are pretty clear.
So the only point towards Clive's bastardry is "he set a fire that could hurt civilians", and if I argue that isn't much, people are just gonna shrug?
"We have things like kids shows where the MB is plotting to steal chocolate milk"
...okay yeah, the trope has lost all meaning. Nevermind, I didn't get the memo.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Sep 23rd 2023 at 12:21:14 PM
The Moron
You can argue "that isn't much", but it's something, and that something is generally all we actually need. As it is, what you're doing is less arguing about whether a certain character qualifies and more saying you disagree with the trope definition - which, as we said, is your prerogative, but it's not a way to argue one person off the list.
ETA:
Okay yeah, you're not arguing in good faith at all. We're done here.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 23rd 2023 at 3:22:21 PM
Given your comment about me doing "that old song and dance about the trope decaying", there was plenty of bad faith to go around. I explained that Clive doesn't fit, no one has provided any counterarguments besides "he started a fire", even when I specifically asked if there was anything else noteworthy in terms of him being a bastard. Did he kill innocents intentionally, did he enjoy seeing people get their karmic retribution, did he refuse mercy to someone asking for it, and I just don't remember these incidents? I'd like to hear about it if it happened and I'll admit I'm wrong.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Sep 23rd 2023 at 12:26:29 PM
