Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
Does it make sense that every single good guy in FFXVI is a Magnificent Bastard? I feel like it severely cheapens the trope to basically just list an entire cast.
Lizzid people!
I mean we allow morally grey candidates.
These characters aren't morally grey. They are considered heroic within their setting, admired by people the setting paints as decent and are generally liberators of slaves, destroyers of evil empires and, finally, killers of evil gods. They aren't any greyer than Han Solo at worst. Is any heroic rebel against an evil society automatically morally grey? No. Primarily, I argue that none of them except for possibly Cid at his absolute worst are unscrupulous.
Edited by DarthHowie on Sep 22nd 2023 at 8:09:18 AM
RIP Toriyama
Clive and Jill are willing to start a fire in the middle of a city as a "distraction"; Dion is willing to kill Olivier before he knows it's Ultima in disguise; that's plenty morally scrupulous for this trope. Nothing's being "cheapened" IMO by having them up.
Edited by Ravok on Sep 22nd 2023 at 9:49:04 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Dion's case is extremely arguable given that Olivier is making the Emperor behave well out of character long before he's unmasked. Even if Olivier was never unmasked acting against him is the obviously moral thing to do and loyalty to his father and not morality was holding Dion back from acting earlier. Declaring a coup against unjust and incapable leadership isn't inherent unscrupulous.
WRT Cid, Jill and Clive, the only things that make them truly "unscrupulous" is that they are acting as outlaws inside a world where every culture relies on slave labor and is subservient to the will of evil gods. One military distraction is not enough to make their overall behavior "bastardly." These characters are heroes, not anti-heroes.
Edited by DarthHowie on Sep 22nd 2023 at 10:23:23 AM
RIP Toriyama
Making "military" decisions or not, it is still, unquestionably, actions that could and would harm random innocents or showing a willingness to kill what appears to be a child in Olivier. The ends justify the means is a fine thing for the overall message, but it doesn't change that they are objectively capable of actions that endanger and/or harm citizenry, and that is enough by the standards of this trope. I understand you're obviously coming at this from a different point of view and take on the trope, but this is how MB has operated for years—even if it is a "hero", if they show enough ruthlessness, then they can count. Willingness to kill a child for being a political opponent/start a fire in the middle of a populated city is enough ruthlessness by the standards of this cleanup and, again, has been for years.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Then I have about 500 pages worth of shows' entire heroic casts to add to this trope should I ever have the time or inclination. I am honestly shocked and astonished at how low a bar you have set with this example. I'm out.
Lizzid people!
No need to be rude just because there is a disagreement.
he/him
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And if you wish to add them, they go through a review and approval process via these threads. Just as the examples you're contesting presumably did.
Edited by Mrph1 on Sep 22nd 2023 at 7:27:53 PM
The Moron
Well hey, if you have characters to propose, you can go ahead and propose them at this thread - we always welcome more participation!
I looked at that thread. They were rubber stamped with no counterarguments.
Lizzid people!
Again likely added because they were morally grey enough for the trope. That is no deterrent.
Again, I have nothing to say in argument to any action that can be considered morally grey is enough for MB status. I don't feel like it would help my argument to submit the entire cast of, say, Leverage, who I feel better apply to what I consider to be a misapplication of this trope.
he/him
Must admit, I'm faintly surprised Sterling's not been listed as MB. But that's a conversation for another day.
I'm not saying just Sterling. I'm saying the entire main cast. They commit crimes every single episode.
The Moron
Well, like I said, if you have an argument to make, you can feel free to make it on the proposal thread
The Moron
Then, being a bit blunt, if you're upset at the low standard you think we have and don't want to do anything on the proposal thread to even challenge it, can I ask why you are still here?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I don't see the problem with a morally grey character being put up if they do something bastardly enough regardless of rather they are the hero or not then they are fair to count or at least discuss.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Not sure how productive this is going to be… the user has been given good faith answers on a subjective topic for which they disagree and is electing to respond in a superior and inflammatory tone. There’s a difference of opinion, not a “low standard.”
Edit: “Cranky and combative” isn’t a good mindset to engage in a social thread with. There’s a level of civility we want to maintain.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 22nd 2023 at 2:49:04 PM
It's not going to be productive. I'm leaving.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
If I may suggest that you take a breather. Like there is no need to get this worked up over people having different opinions than you. This trope is YMMV for a reason.
Edit: Nevermind they left. Ignore this then.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 22nd 2023 at 1:50:26 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
he/him
As others have said, let's keep it polite.
Hey, just so you know, you can't just mass delete entries like that without coming here first, so I'm going to put them all back until discussion is resolved.
As for the entries themselves, good guys are able to qualify for the trope if they're unscrupulous enough, and I don't see anything wrong with the entries themselves off hand.