Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard (MB) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List
Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a MB has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's MBs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any MB link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an MB link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved MBs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their MB equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:36:43 AM
I'll also note that as soon as Noore finds out her family was killed by Pagan Min, she immediately kills herself out of despair for performing that evil for nothing. So, yeah, in this instance I'm 100% putting everything she does on Pagan Min as the story paints her as someone who would not do such things willingly.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.So this is my first post on this forum, and I hope I'm not breaking any rules, but Makima from Chainsaw Man needs to be cut. I will try to be very thorough about this, to make sure we don't have to discuss it again, even though this will be a wall of text. Also spoilers.
First, while Denji did require a fairly smart plan to defeat her, it only worked because of a perfectly avoidable mistake on Makima's part. For context Denji defeated her by realizing that she tells people apart by smell, then betting on Makima always recognizing him based on Pochita, the Chainsaw Devil's scent, because she's in love with him, and never off of Denji's personal scent, because she never cared about him. This allows Denji to send Pochita out as a decoy, while he sneaks up and ultimately gets the drop on Makima. There's no real indication that she couldn't have separately memorized Denji's scent if she wanted to, especially since Denji says this:
- "She only remembers the scents of people she has an interest in...she never saw me even once, from the start..."
Now Denji's speculating here, but this is clearly framed by the manga to be a correct deduction, especially since there is evidence that Makima never cared about Denji.
Second, Makima is WAY too much of a bastard. We can see this right at the same time she's revealed as an outright villain. She wanted a demonstration of the Angel Devils power and used her powers to force him to. She could have had him just explain it, or test it on one person just to see specifically what it does, but instead she has Angel murder his entire village with it. There's no real reason to do that.
Then of course there's her treatment of Denji. It's considered a metaphor for child grooming by some, and for fairly good reason.
To start her entire plan involves manipulating an emotionally stunted teenager, which is already very questionable, but she ultimately breaks him by forcing him to kill his best friend Aki (It's not explicitly clear that Makima turns Aki into the Gun Fiend, but she rather effortlessly defeated the Gun Devil, and the whole event plays right into Makima's hands, so it seems pretty obvious she caused it.) This breaks Denji hard enough that he wants to just become a dog and not think about anything. And then Makima has Power invited over and tells Denji she's going to kill Power, telling him that he's a dog and should open the door. Makima does kill Power, and makes Denji feel the guilt of being the one to open the door. And then when Denji, in denial, asks if this is a dream, she laughs in his face. Then she has Denji take off his shirt and she begins playing with his chainsaw starter, which has a lot of creepy subtext, while she says this:
- "In exchange for you living a normal life...Pochita gave you a heart...What you made with Pochita wasn't a promise. It was a contract. I asked myself...How I could break that contract. How could I make it so that you'd no longer be capable of living a normal life? So damaged that you'd never be able to bounce back for as long as you live? Quite the challenge, isn't it? After all, you felt plenty of happiness even living in extreme poverty with Pochita. So I decided to begin...with making you a lot happier. I gave you a job and money...and fed you lots of delicious food. I provided a family that would get along with you. Aki became a good big brother to you. And Power, the bratty little sister. I'd make that level of happiness your new normal...and then destroy the whole thing. Any happiness or normality you experience from this point on? I'll be the one to create it and destroy it all. If you overcome your grief and make friends, I'll kill them immediately. If you get married and start a family, I won't allow your wife and children to live long."
That sounds like something a Complete Monster would say (though she definitely isn't one) than anything that would come out of an MB's mouth. That's an explicit threat to kill children, which I'm pretty sure is an automatic disqualification. There's no real reason to say that. AND THEN she forces Denji to dredge up a repressed memory of how his father didn't kill himself, but in fact Denji killed him. Denji's brain has basically stopped working at this point, while Makima is casually eating and drinking coffee.
Is it just me, or is that a bit...much. Even if it was nothing personal and was done for good intention. But it was personal and the good intentions are questionable.
Makima seems to not view Denji as a person, and seems to actively dislike him. If laughing in his face wasn't a big enough tell, then how she defeats Chainsaw Man in the final fight (which mind you is not Denji but Pochita, making Makima seem even more petty and pathetic on reread.) She defeats him then revives him and then kills him with her bare hands just to prove she can.
- "It was unavoidable that you'd lose to my bare hands. You aren't Chainsaw Man after all. How can I get you to give up on this world Denji? What do I need for you to turn back into Chainsaw Man [Pochita spits in her face] Chainsaw man...doesn't spit. Chainsaw Man...doesn't wear clothing...and doesn't talk. Every action he takes should be chaotic. And yet...despite not getting him at all...you were chosen by Chainsaw Man...If you're going to get in our way...then die."
There's no real reason Makima had to defeat him that way, other than to assert her control over him. Makima has an image of Pochita, and because Denji doesn't live up to that she uses that as an excuse to abuse him so thoroughly. If all this doesn't kill a character's magnificence DEAD I don't know what does.
Three, speaking of Makima's magnificence, that relies on her planning skill, which is undercut by her getting killed thanks to a stupid mistake, and it relies on her good intentions, which are questionable.
Makima's plan is to use Pochita's abilities to erase concepts from existence, and use it to erase everything bad about the world. Everything Bad. Including bad movies, which contrasts with Denji's thoughts that the bad movies make the good ones worth it, making it clear Makima's world will be sterile, and hardly a utopia.
Also, Makima's powers explicitly work by having her control people that she feels are less than her, which she considered all of humanity to be. She also notes that she views humanity as loyal and easily handled. Overall this makes how much she would care about humanity when she rules over it questionable.
Two extra things to note, one is that Makima's upbringing made it so she didn't really understand equal relationships, meaning her abuse could be the only way she knows how to form a relationship. While this makes her more sympathetic, it doesn't really make her more magnificent, especially since it's clear that even by her own version of a relationship, she never really cared at all about Denji. The second is that she is okay with losing to Pochita and getting eaten, but this is still fundamentally a selfish outcome for her, as she wants to be one with Chainsaw Man. She would probably not appreciate being one with Denji. Also she gets rendered Deader than Dead by being cut up into meals and eaten, which is a rather...interesting way to die, and quite undignified.
Overall, this seems like a cut multiple times over.
I say cut Makima. I feel the Angel thing is overlooked. Sure she is testing out his power you can argue but there is literally no reason to make him kill his entire family specifically. Plus I get the reason behind mind breaking Denji but she was way too sadistic about it in my opinion suck as laughing at him while he was in denial about her killing Power
Wow, Makima sounds like an easy cut. Way too much of a bastard and a smug snake that caused her own defeat through a perfectly avoidable mistake of not getting to know Denji's scent and reviving him just so she can prove she can kill him with her bare hands to assert dominance, plus her death sounds really undignified for a Magnificent Bitch to have.
Okay, as the person who proposed Makima? I am still a firm keep, and here is why.
- Makima manages to run a world-spanning plan that involves some absolutely brilliant feats of planning. Yes, she has weak points that are used against her in the end, that being that she doesn't have Denji's scent and her desire for Pochita to consume her— but she has been a genius planner up to this point and Denji's acts are an outright gamble. One slip-up in an otherwise nigh-perfect record does not make her a Smug Snake.
- Makima is definitely very, very evil. This is true. However, her breaking of Denji is absolutely done in the name of trying to ensure peace across the world. While there is an element of egotism to it, nothing hints that Makima is doing anything but what she thinks is right. She is not committing sadism for the sake of sadism, and while she definitely has some brutal actions (Indeed, laughing in Denji's face when she murders his friends) there are also a number of tragic qualities that she has as well such as crying at a romantic scene in the movie and her desire for genuine love. The Angel Devil thing is a cruel moment to be sure, but— again— Makima wanted to see how his powers worked. It's not sadism for the sake of sadism.
- Whether there is an argument about the metaphorical subtext of Makima's actions, it is made quite blatant in the manga that the only reason she does what she does with Denji is because it is the easiest way to manipulate him into achieving her ends. We have plenty of femme fatale characters doing similar things, and Makima is very clearly using Denji as a means to an end. Her possessiveness toward him is driven by her upbringing.
- Makima's death by being cut up and eaten is not really that undignified. It's a death that has to be done, and is a gamble, because Denji had no other way of keeping her down for good.
- Truth be told, while I understand the reservations about her, I absolutely do not see her as a Smug Snake and I very much believe she is a keeper. I stated, when I proposed her, that she is very evil but that it is for what she believes to be a good cause and that she has a genuinely tragic upbringing, not to mention that the way this has been phrased makes it sound like she's extremely arrogant when she herself acknowledges her own defeat as something of a victory condition due to her admiration of Pochita. While Makima most definitely has flaws and some intensely awful moments, she also shows genuine humanity at times and I believe the sheer magnitude and skill of her planning is worth mentioning. This character manages to play multiple parties directly into her hands and arrange a long-term plan that nearly allows her to rewrite the entire world. Having a couple major errors at the last moment do not make her a Smug Snake, and I am in favor of keeping her.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 26th 2023 at 5:37:59 AM
I'd say Makima is fine. Brutal as she may be, it's balanced out by genuine well-intentions and no unnecessary cruelty.
Threatening to kill a hero's family is a fairly standard villain threat that lots of MBs have made. It's only disqualifying if their whole M.O. is specifically targeting children.
And while she does have a slip up, it doesn't quite undermine an overall very good track record from her. An MB isn't typically flawless and is allowed to make mistakes, in fact making them too perfect might cost them Magnificence.
Keep Makima
Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 26th 2023 at 5:44:59 AM
I see your point but again there is absolutely no point in making Angel kills his family specifically. And said good intentions are pretty weak let’s not lie. So i don’t think they mitigate the mind breaking enough in my opinion. And again she loses due to her arrogance. I agree she is definitely a genius and very cunning but I feel it is overshadowed by how vile she is
Well an MB can be super evil, so long as their crimes aren't to the point of being revolting to the audience. It doesn't look like to me Makima has done anything disgusting.
Arrogance is a bit subjective. MBs are allowed to be confident in themselves. It only becomes problematic if they are completely blinded by their overconfidence that they do stupid things.
Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 26th 2023 at 5:58:37 AM
I will just say framing is important... and the framing hear seems to be classic Well Intentioned Extremist. I will say the bad movies thing is giving me some pause... Makes her motivations seem fundamentally self-serving, but then it just seems like she's MCU!Thanos, who I'm comfortable saying is a keep. Like him she does seem to have enough sympathetic traits to balance. So I'm still leaning keep.
Also we have had plenty of keepers who threaten children. Gus Fring comes to mind. Hell we've had some who kill children.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 26th 2023 at 9:12:23 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midOn a more positive note I wanted to suggest two small changes.
Firstly we long since approved the Disney live action prequel/remake version of Maleficent but I think we can cut out the intro text given the original has also gone up. It's basically just taking out the words in front of her name leaving us with:
- Maleficent: Maleficent retains the charisma and charm of her original counterpart. Charged with protecting the Moors, Maleficent declares herself their "Dark Queen" when her childhood friend Stefan betrays her and becomes the King of the humans. Cursing Stefan's daughter Aurora to fall into a death-like sleep, Maleficent seals off the Moors and easily dispatches of any of Stefan's soldiers, all the while growing fond of Aurora from afar after Stefan begs her to lift the curse, with Maleficent eventually breaking it out of her own love for Aurora. Defeating Stefan, Maleficent goes on to quash any who attack her or her loved ones, defeating and humiliating a wicked Queen before giving Aurora and her fiancé a lavish wedding while going on to rule the Dark Fey unopposed.
Also to spice it up I decided to add some potholes to said original version:
- Sleeping Beauty: Maleficent, the Mistress of All Evil, is a wicked fairy who takes hospitality seriously. Upon being slighted by a refusal to invite her to Princess Aurora's birthday, Maleficent curses her to prick her finger on a spinning wheel's spindle and die at age 16. When the good fairies Flora, Fauna, and Merryweather counter the curse and spirit Aurora off to raise, Maleficent later uncovers how bad her minions have botched the search and handles it herself. Easily luring Aurora to prick her finger, Maleficent then sees Prince Phillip caught by her trap so that none can wake the princess for a century. Upon Phillip getting free, Maleficent assumes the form of a mighty dragon to face him, boasting that facing her, he faces all the powers of hell itself.
Thoughts?
Got ignored last time so pointing this out again
Notice something that wanted to point out, in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/MagnificentBastard/Gundam
Prospera’s MB entry is put incorrectly into Post Disaster, which belongs to Iron Blooded Orphans. As she belongs to Ad Stella, the timeline of Witch from Mercury instead
Edited by TadiTadTa on Aug 26th 2023 at 10:00:09 PM
I think Iike Gundam and Dragon Quest too much

I can vouch for Pussy, especially since I did the write up