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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#16251: Jul 29th 2024 at 8:54:12 AM

[up]The younger one resorted to torture too as well if I'm not mistaken. I think he also killed young Gordon and took his powers if I remember correctly as well.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
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#16252: Jul 29th 2024 at 8:58:00 AM

More of a Malick crime to provide Garrett with powers iirc, and the rest of the entry already goes into enough detail about him indulging in torture to get the point across imo.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#16254: Jul 29th 2024 at 5:11:19 PM

This isn't really a cut proposal and I'm gonna avoid casting a vote for now just to be sure. That said, here are the respective CM and MB entries for Hans Gruber respectively—and as you can see, they feel more in line with each other than the CM and MB entries for Harry Lime do:

  • Complete Monster: Hans Gruber is a self-described "exceptional thief" who leads the takeover of Nakatomi Plaza in Los Angeles. A former German terrorist, Hans is focused solely on his own profit, attempting to steal millions in bearer bonds—a plan which involves demanding the release of numerous terrorists worldwide to throw the authorities off. Executing company head Joseph Takagi when he refuses to cooperate, Gruber has a SWAT team wiped out when they storm the building, and when John McClane interferes, Hans murders a hostage who claims to be John's friend and threatens to begin shooting more until he "gets to someone you do care about!" Hans never intends to let any hostages go, instead placing all of them on the roof to rig it with explosives, which he then plans to detonate—killing over 30 innocent people as a distraction—and fake his own death to escape with the bonds. While only succeeding in killing members of the FBI, Hans immediately kidnaps John's ex-wife before attempting to kill her and John in retribution. Ruthlessly devoted to his own profit above anything else and mixing an utter lack of regard for human lives—even those of his own men—with an air of urbane sophistication, Hans Gruber remains the most deeply personal enemy John McClane has ever faced, and serves as a prototype for countless future action movie villains.
  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Hans Gruber is the debonair mastermind behind the scheme to steal hundreds of millions of dollars in bearer bonds from the Nakatomi building. Meticulously orchestrating his operation, Hans constantly shows his brilliance by outmaneuvering both the police and federal agents working to stop him, as well as cool charisma both when his initial plot is disrupted and in his ability to negotiate with his hostages. To stop the police forces from catching wind of his true intent, Hans phones their negotiators to demand the release of a list of incarcerated terrorists—casually noting to an underling that he got the name of one such group from the news—thus successfully disguising his actual plan. When confronted by a smug hostage, Hans tricks the man into giving up the name of hero John McClane and is nearly able to discern the location of the detonators McClane has been hiding to use against Hans and his men. Later caught unarmed by McClane, Hans effortlessly improvises using an American accent to pretend he is a hostage, a tactic which almost earns him the chance to kill the hero. A ruthless, greedy man, Hans's display of both strategic acumen and charisma nevertheless make him an iconic action film villain who sets the template for countless more to follow.

I think he definitely still counts for MB. As this, I wanted to iron out a few things though just to be sure:

Well like I said, it's speculation that he would've figured Karl was already dead when he sees McClane freed the hostages, so how much weight that would have very remains to be seen. His concern in the moment isn't so much indifference to Karl's death either way though, it's that the window to blow the roof so that he and whoever's left can move forward with Faking the Dead is closing and he has to act fast rather than think about the consequences in the moment. There's no real malice or apathy in the moment, he's just thinking in terms of needing to keep things on track or else the plan fails—so while cold pragmatism, it's also very much a reasonable Nothing Personal slant as well that also isn't really that cruel all things considered.

While he mainly doesn't like losing the man power because it makes things harder and just wants to make sure he's successful in the end, Hans also isn't looking to totally write-off his men as expendable either though. There's at least his working well enough with both Karl and Theo in certain scenes and specifically when Tony is killed, he dreads having to tell Karl, but still asks he be brought down to tell him in person though. He's assuring Karl that he'll have his chance at revenge as long as they can keep things moving—and I don't take that as him just talking—and he also talks of him and who's left sharing in the success of the mission too: "…we'll be sitting on a beach, earning 20%."

Again while these could be flimsy reasons to cut him for all I know that overall don't have a big enough or strong enough barring on the whole picture, they're little things that may make Hans just a little more human than he appears too. Things like his apparently jaded relationship with his brother Simon (where that's more humane for Simon as a character as he basically says: "yes I couldn't stand my brother, but that doesn't mean I wanted him killed") and helping the pregnant woman—the latter specifically being pragmatic (even though there's definitely no cruelty in just making her comfortable before he thinks she'll die along with everyone else)—don't hurt the case for keeping certainly. A few of these other little things could, but again, could also just be that: little things that really don't measure up to his willingly sacrificing numerous people just to get rich even with how charismatic and chill he is while doing so.

Not saying to cut, I'm just saying food for thought. I'd be good with him keeping of course since he's probably the most solid argument for crossovers existing to begin with.

Also, is calling him Faux Affably Evil accurate? He's pretty straightforward with his attitude as is throughout the movie.

So right now, I'll put myself down as an abstain to see where things go.

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#16256: Jul 29th 2024 at 5:14:43 PM

We've discussed Hans thoroughly I would think and I feel that he overall still counts.

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#16260: Jul 29th 2024 at 5:23:15 PM

To me this cuts to why Hans is a Complete Monster... he's debonair, sophisticated and charming but while he's cold and detached rather than sadistic you still point out he's not bothered by the deaths of his men and makes no indication he'd care what happened to Karl. He's a practitioner of Pragmatic Villainy but to answer your ultimate question: yes, he's Faux Affably Evil, as evidenced with cruelly telling John it's a matter of time before he kills a hostage he cares about and he is willing to blow his own men up alongside the hostages, so he can escape with his pay, in addition to straight up ordering dangerous terrorists released for no other reason than diversion. I think he fits both this and the sister trope quite well.

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#16262: Jul 29th 2024 at 5:26:23 PM

When it comes to Hans, I think everything we see of him is good enough to make me say he keeps. Hans treats his cohorts in the robbery decently enough, but when it comes down to it we see absolutely nothing to prove he values them or cares for the, given how he orders the blowing up of the rooftop while still thinking Karl was still on it and nothing exhibits and any actual camaraderie, and Hans only reaction when Karl flips out about his brother”s death is just “focus on the mission. You can kill him latee” rather than any actual sympatjy. He only treats them as coworkers wanting mutual money, such as William Stuart in the second movie,.

Furthermore, Hans is definitely Faux Affably Evil. He8s able to put a friendly facade up as well as heaps of sophistication, but when he doesn’t get what he wants, it goes away quickly. Best example is with Takagi. Hans seems polite, complimenting, and making friendly banter with him…before promptly blowing his head off when Takagi doesn’t comply with his demands.

And for everything else? Hans and Simon’s relationship isn’t delved into enough. Even his brother, who wants to avenge Hans, admits that he thinks he’s an asshole too. And while he agrees to make a pregnant woman comfortable enough, that pretty much becomes nothing as he’s willing to have her killed alongside dozens of others simply so he can rob the place.

Overall, Hans minor moments of pragmatism and his Wicked Culture doesn’t discredit him being self serving greedy mastermind who’s willing to sacrifice dozens of people simply to get a pay day.

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Jul 29th 2024 at 8:29:03 AM

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#16265: Jul 29th 2024 at 5:43:33 PM

All convincing arguments and yeah, his being about control and structured in making the plan successful is what helps keep him from being overly cruel for MB while also showing that his high and surgical disregard for human life still helps him to fit CM as well. I will say [tup] to keeping after all.

Contrast with Ivan/Egor Korshunov who's not against killing the innocent hostages in bulk including a teen girl and yet also has moments in which he brings up his own children, mourns and gets angry when his own men get killed, believes he's fighting for a greater cause (that one is questionable since he's radical though) and celebrating openly and happily with Andrei by hugging him twice. With the latter one? You definitely don't see that kind of warmth expressed by Hans toward Karl or Theo.[lol]

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#16267: Jul 29th 2024 at 6:41:59 PM

Keep Hans. He's one of those few whose both a CM and MB

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#16268: Jul 29th 2024 at 7:10:27 PM

So looking at Blood Meridian:

  • Judge Holden is introduced casually ruining a man's life by claiming him guilty of a crime several towns over, before confessing he had never met the man before and just destroyed his life for giggles. Holden acts as a corrupting force to the Glanton Gang throughout the novel, subtly pushing them to commit more and more atrocities on the undeserving. Holden's savagery and cruelty utterly outstrip the rest of his contemporaries and the lives he takes are often done so with more terrible violence then the others. Holden thinks nothing of murdering children, and they tend to go missing from areas he visits after he is seen tempting them with sweets. The true nature of Holden is left ambiguous, but regardless he is a creature who desires nothing less than permanent violence and closes the novel with a murder implied to be too horrible to show even in the story's depressingly bleak world.

I think Judge Holden’s should be altered to elaborate on more of his crimes and make it flow better, here’s what I got:

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#16270: Jul 30th 2024 at 5:08:54 AM

[tup] Judge Holden Rewrite

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#16271: Jul 30th 2024 at 5:45:48 AM

[tup] to Holden rewrite

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