Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Why are we comparing him to Weyland-Yutani, that's a completely different franchise?
"We'll meet again" | 🏳️⚧️Wet:Oh thank you so much for the corrections, it just solidifies my voice. It looks like Blair was simply trying to eliminate an unnecessary informant.
ACW: Weyland-Yutani C Ms are typically its leaders or high-ranking officials. The fact is that C Ms are still presented as the worst. Weyland doesn't force Marines to sacrifice themselves en masse like Burke did and it has its own nasty touches that Weyland doesn't come close to, they don't cut off a woman's life support to spite one Marine like Karl Pishop. Weyland is a disgusting company, but CM is still the worst and superior to the rest of the members. The problem with Murkoff and Blair in particular is that his worst crimes, here in the sequels, are the norm for Murkoff.
This is ultimately where I land.
In the first game, Blaire is easily the worst. Wernicke technically created the Walrider, but Blaire directly oversees the experiments that lead to its creation and thus the Mind Rape of countless innocent people into violent monsters. When this leads to the breakout that kills hundreds of people (with such beauties as Walker creating a small mountain of corpses, Trager pulling his routine on an entire floor - and he was only in there because Blaire had him committed - and even random fuck-off Variants raping decapitated corpses onscreen), Blaire goes out of his way to make sure the problem can't be solved by destroying the radio, all to save his own ass. Even after everyone else in the area is dead, Blaire still tricks Waylon into helping him so that he can try to kill him again. At that point, I don't particularly care if he's not the one who directly caused the breakout, it's his actions that led directly to it and once it happens he sabotages the attempt to end it - that's active involvement. We have multiple cases I can cite right now where we approved someone who was relatively hands off at about the same level (my own Dr. Roy Jameson kills a doctor to steal and monetize vaccines, and the original version of Tyrone "TK" King gets full credit from us for giving Phenotrans access to the zombie cages to start an outbreak without doing so himself), and against precedents like that, this is more than enough for me.
In the second game, yes, everyone involved is committing a lot of horrible crimes, but Murkoff's involvement is not only far less direct, but the actual situation only got as bad as it did because of an accident - a storm destroyed something that's sending out a signal to drive everyone mad. The cult itself was formed with Murkoff's involvement, but it's all but directly stated that it wasn't meant to get as outright batshit insane as it ended up becoming. When you combine that with the fact that we get absolutely no information on who at Murkoff had anything to do with that (unless I missed something huge), so far Blaire stacks up.
Now, like I said before, I know nothing about the Outlast Trials, but so far, I'm not seeing anything that makes me think we need to immediately cut Blaire. Yes, it sounds like there's someone on his relative level getting up to similar things, but the person in the Trials game is an actual doctor - that's someone who actually will have a hand in the experiments - and it's in the middle of the Cold War where everyone is going to be working towards a higher war-based goal. Jeremy is a businessman in modern peacetime first and foremost, that's not someone with a higher goal and there's no reason for him to be directly involved in things except for how it impacts the bottom line, and yet even with that, he arranges all of the experiments for the first game to turn the Walrider into a weapon, actively incarcerates multiple people to subjection to the Morphogenic Engine just to protect himself, sabotages the attempt to call for help to put the outbreak down, and even when it's all over and everyone is dead, he still tries to kill the hero.
I do understand the argument of "similar levels", but in my opinion, I'm not sure that's 100% accurate. We are talking about two people in charge of experiments, but one is a doctor in charge of a Cold War operation and one is a businessman trying to make profits by weaponizing a monster, so to me the fact that they have different levels of involvement and slightly different levels of what they get up to doesn't mean Blaire is a cut to me (hell, if anything, if the guy from Trials counts, I have no problem listing him side by side with Blaire).
I think that's ultimately what I have to say, but however this ends up, I appreciate the thorough discussion as always!
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 25th 2024 at 5:43:42 AM
Oh I appreciate the friendly discussion STAR! It's a heinous concern of a very nasty fucker.
I've laid my points, you've laid out yours.
I do ask though we've got to take everyone into consideration for the heinous standard right? That's my hiccup for Blaire, the extremely fucked shit that Temple Gate commit with all 3 groups (Knoth's group, Heretic, Scalled) It still adds to the heinous standard and the Body Horror is more enforced with the Outlast trials whereas the Morphogenic's Body Horror is more of an after product of it's experiments.
This is a universe where unironically I think every type of crime has been committed lmao (rape, paedophilia, cannibalism, torture, murder, Cruel and Unusual Death in abundance) it's hilariously dark.
If Blaire stays or goes, at least the discussion's been healthy and will be useful to refer back to.
Oh and please correct if I'm wrong but during the whistle-blower DLC, doesn't a Murkoff employee threaten some others because they wanted to get out?
What's wrong D-16? Rise up!Weak keep for Blaire
Unrelated but, DC Animated Movie Universe now eccompases both pre Tomorrowverse (nicknamed Warverse) and Tomorrowverse since latter is created by in-universe Cosmic Retcon rather than just being reboot.
So I think we should do something on DC animated monster page to reflect that. I think this works:
Thoughts?
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jul 25th 2024 at 3:03:57 AM
It is very true that everyone in the second game is up to a lot, especially Knoth and Val, but again, the only one of those who really has any independent crimes of his own is Knoth (who started the cult before Murkoff got involved). It's all but stated that the reason things got to the point that everyone is slaughtering each other left and right by the time Blake and Lynn get there is because of the nearby Murkoff radio towers, but the towers were broken by a storm, meaning they go off more often than they should be (which is why Lynn gets pregnant and goes to term while Blake goes completely insane in just a few hours). Val in particular is implied to have been driven mad by the towers, since she was originally one of Knoth's followers before she started hearing voices.
If we had any idea who was in charge of that experiment, then I would absolutely say to cut Blaire - regardless of if it was on purpose or accidental, that experiment is fucked up - but the fact that it both got as bad as it did because of accidental storm damage and that we get absolutely no look into anyone who may or may not have been involved in the experiment (hell, with Blaire being the highest executive we ever see, we don't have any evidence that it wasn't his idea - I know that's nonsensical but that's the point, we don't have evidence for or against it) makes me find it hard to put it against Blaire personally.
Knoth and Val's actions lead to hundreds of crimes, yes, but so do Blaire's, and while their's are sex crimes while the doctor from Trials has physical mutilation-based crimes, Blaire's primary crime is Mind Rape which then escalates into just about any heinous crime you can imagine by the hundreds inside the Asylum. Frankly, if the four of them counted (and I know Knoth and Val don't, I have no idea on the guy from Trials), I'd be fine listing all four
@Geode: I believe that "Warverse" nickname is actually under discussion elsewhere on the site (if I recall, no one can verify that it's a widespread Fan Nickname, it was a placeholder that one guy was trying to push through a forum thread), so for now I'd call Warverse "mainline", but other than that I like the idea!
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 25th 2024 at 6:11:28 AM
It also worth noting Blair had to be talked down by his cohorts to not make it even worse than things already were. Blair specifically wanted to include women in the experiments as well to increase results despite the high fatality rate. While I don't want to rely on Fridge Horror when discussing heinous standard issues, I have to imagine the situation in the first game would have been far worse, including more graphic sexual crimes, if there were female inmates there like Blair wanted.
In general, I do think it helps his overall odds in relation to the company when even other Murkoff employees are pulling Even Evil Has Standards in regards to him.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jul 25th 2024 at 3:16:48 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Hmm FWIW, the Trials experiment, is built nearby Temple Gate
. Problem is I can't see if the Doctor behind it is responsible for the whole thing there with the Radio Towers.
The female patient thing? That's the only nugget for that could push him IMO. Also IIRC there's a document about him wanting to deal with Waylon's wife because she's concerned about her husbands "mental health"?
Tbh with this debate though I'm tempted to do a deep dive on the Doctor behind the Murkoff trials based on these two docs I found whilst browsing
Date: June 29, 1958
(heading removed)
REPORT TO BOARD ON PROJECT LATHE PERSONNEL REPORT
Per The Board's request, please find below a tally of the last month's deaths and injuries incurred in Doctor Easterman's Limbic Aggression Therapy, (PROJECT LATHE.)
EXPERIMENTAL POPULATION: 109 STAFF, SECURITY: 32 STAFF, RESEARCH/SCIENTIFIC: 8 STAFF, MAINTENANCE: 17 VISITORS: 5
Addendum— No amount of redesign / hardening will make the Trial Environments at the Sinyala Facility acceptably safe. Strongly suggest immediate shut-down."
PERSONNEL SURVEILLANCE
COPY
PRIVATE JOURNAL ENTRY OF DR. HENDRICK JOLIET EASTERMAN
Date: July 13, 1958 (ASSUMED, DATE ILLEGIBLE)
We'll make lemonade. By god, if life's given you lemons...
LATHE proved reprogramming is possible.
It will be as the first rough explosions and industrial disasters inspired the creation of the combustion engine.
We can use the Trial Environments, the Prime Assets and their Ex-Pop, they will be the anvil against which we hammer our true subjects.
Two principles must change:
- Give me meaningless test subjects. Neither damaged and broken mental patients, nor charismatic killers. Give me the vanquishable, the unloved, the unformed. I need subjects who are the opposite of special. - I must be absent. Powerful, benevolent, and mysterious by my absence. I cannot mix with the test subjects.
I will find men and women without purpose, and I will guide them as God does, from a mysterious remove."
Edited by WetFlannels on Jul 25th 2024 at 11:21:22 AM
What's wrong D-16? Rise up!If you wanna go all in on the Doctor and maybe give him a full proposal, I'd be 100% down for it, but right now, I'm 100% a keep for Blair based on the information we've got. If that changes once you deep dive the Doctor, I'll happily eat my words!
As to answer other questions:
The document you're referring to has Blair state that he threatened Waylon's wife to keep quiet by threatening to saddle her with insurmountable medical debt, but nothing fatal is implied.
By the time Blair is suggesting to add female patients, five women have already died from the nonexistent pregnancies the Engine causes, so the problems are not unknown by the time he's suggesting subjecting women to it.
As for the Trials facility being built near Temple Gate, that would be a retcon from II if it's true - if I recall correctly, the comics say that the facility was built after the cult had already formed and moved there, since it was an isolated population they could experiment on, and it was once the experiments began (and then broke in the storm) that things turned lethal en masse. The Doctor's facility being near Temple Gate would either be a retcon or it would have to be a different facility (especially since if Trials is supposed to be in the Cold War, we're looking at a 40-something year difference between Trials and II taking place)
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 25th 2024 at 6:39:16 AM
Wet:Yes, everyone needs to be taken into account. And this is another stumbling block for Blair.
Great points and great point Star, but personally I'll stick with my cut. The fact that he is trying to kill Waylon, even when everything is of course a nasty touch, but honestly, the fact that he is trying to make sure that this problem will not be solved by society... does not really matter when Murkoff herself sends a tactical squad to suppress ....and they are immediately easily destroyed by Walrider. Blair himself and Murkoff were threatened with exposure, and the situation was clearly out of control and Blair is trying to make sure that society does not find out about his atrocities, so that he does not get hit on the “pumpkin.” The argument about mind rape is excellent, but honestly, with other disgusting experiments and especially with the crap that the Doctor does in Trials? Eh, I don’t think that’s enough. Although yes, the fact that he also sought to experiment on women despite the high mortality rate is definitely disgusting.
The Doctor sounds extremely vile and I support his EP, even if Blair leaves we will have a worthy replacement.
Edited by Ghal-Sur on Jul 25th 2024 at 3:36:10 AM
...Yes, he committed atrocities and is willing to commit murder to ensure it doesn't go public. That's a textbook crime that countless CMs have committed. I don't know where this argument that it's somehow less heinous because things were already out of control is coming from. If you wanna argue that he's just not heinous enough I 100% get that, but that just downplays what he's doing to begin with.
Also, I gotta be honest - the quote on "pumpkin" and referring to "Murkoffa" as a "herself" kinda makes me think you ran this response through AI?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 25th 2024 at 6:35:05 AM
I'm not trying to downplay this and yes, countless C Ms have done this. Just I personally don't think it helps his disgustingness.
I didn't say it softens it.
Star: I made a mistake about the name of the organization, but about the pumpkin I just wanted to make a joke and that’s all.
Edited by Ghal-Sur on Jul 25th 2024 at 3:37:09 AM
I would wait to change the DC Animated Movie Universe stuff because people are still debating what to call the pre Tomorrowverse stuff and it seems like we are getting rid of the Warverse name.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Minor thing about that, Murkoff does call in their own tactical squad to deal with the variants. They don't achieve much due to the Walrider like...
What's wrong D-16? Rise up!