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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

Tehrannotaur Since: Mar, 2013
#15951: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:31:13 PM

[up]This is ultimately why he was approved as a CM (and it's for the same reasons why Nobliss Gordon got approved as such). He was using his skills and resources to deliberately instigate wars (and for existing wars keep them going on for longer), and he's actually kind of worse than Nobliss in this aspect as whereas Nobliss did it in the name of lining his pockets, Diethart did it because he's a sadist. He's like the Major from Hellsing in this aspect: caring only about causing as much destruction, carnage, warfare and death as possible.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:33:28 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#15952: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:32:47 PM

Keep Diethard. He’s deliberately prolonging a war because he thinks all the violence and death will make him a lot of money.

It's Spooky Month!
PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#15953: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:34:19 PM

My word on Diethard is I feel his want for the biggest war ever so that he can document it while taking steps to keep it going (He's said to assist in gaining traction for the Black Knights with his media connections) and praises the idea of a global war, later swapping sides to Schneizel. The argument last time was as to whether or not he was too hands off and voted to keep him. I'm not following his character page itself and I'm agnostic as to whether we think the likes of Hate Sink or More Despicable Minion apply to him.

Dude-of-Wealth-And-Taste (Apprentice) Relationship Status: Become a part of me!
#15954: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:35:25 PM

Personally I'm leaning more towards keeping Diethard

Till all are one.
Tehrannotaur Since: Mar, 2013
#15955: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:36:41 PM

[up][up][up]No it's not even for money. If there was a war that he could get invovled in/instigate/whatever that made more money but was less bloody and didn't offer him as much room to cause even more carnage, he would unquestioningly take the less profitable option just to be able to hurt people.

Like imagine he was given an option between ending a war to ensure peacetime and it makes more money and one that basically is global genocide and it makes less money. He would no doubt take the latter.

He's like a horrifying mixture of Nobliss Gordon, The Major and Chaka.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:43:54 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#15956: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:41:36 PM

Put an MIB tree in the drafts. I bring this up also because Boris's entry's an older one and might need attention. I'll leave that up to others to decide though—and at the least with Serleena also keeping, he's not the only sadistic villain left in the movies anymore now too:

  • Men in Black 3: Boris the Animal is by far the most murderously sadistic villain in the films, and easily the most personal. He is introduced being freed from prison by his prison mail girlfriend, whom he lets die when she is blown out into space, and kills another prisoner whom he promised to take with him. He travels back in time to eliminate K as personal revenge for destroying his arm when he was captured, causing a present day invasion by his race of Boglodites to consume everyone on Earth, which is his ultimate goal. Boris despises his nickname of the Animal, and will kill anyone who refers to him by it. A remorseless butcher who isn't afraid to kill anyone in his way, he kills a number of targets in the past, finds his past self so pathetic he only refrains from killing him because he would be erased from time, and murders J's father out of spite for being thwarted by K.

I also worried that his arm dart shooter would be a redemptive quality as he refers to himself as "we" at times, says "You complete me" when reunited with it and also commiserates with it over losing his arm. That said, it's probably just an extension of himself though. Even if it has its agency, he's likely far more interested in its personal use to him than the thing actually having genuine meaning to him beyond that.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:43:14 AM

Tehrannotaur Since: Mar, 2013
#15957: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:48:19 PM

[up][up][up][up]Given his actions, More Hateable Minor Villain and Hate Sink definitely apply to him. He's the Shou Tucker of Code Geass.

He may not be as "big" as say the Britannian Royal Family but his actions frighteningly hit closer to home for the audience. He stands out for how much he does and shows how even someone as small-time and insignificant as him can be so vile. Combine this with a lack of any sympathetic, tragic, or even remotely likable or cool traits (he has none of those), you got a recipe for a textbook Hate Sink.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:57:32 AM

Dude-of-Wealth-And-Taste (Apprentice) Relationship Status: Become a part of me!
#15958: Jul 21st 2024 at 6:48:33 PM

Always saw Boris' thing with Weasel irrc as just an extension of himself.

Helps that it does quite literally complete him as through it, he can finally have a weapon to shoot darts at people. So am willing to keep him.

Edited by Dude-of-Wealth-And-Taste on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:02:19 PM

Till all are one.
ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#15959: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:03:16 PM

[up][up] How exactly did Diethard instigate any wars? Nobliss Gordon directly financed both sides of a worker conflict and tried to have Kudelia assassinated knowing it would inflame tensions. Diethard helps the Black Knights, but given how the Black Knights are a resistance group whose countrymen are treated as second-class citizens and routinely massacred by a fascist, colonialist occupying force, he doesn't need to do any inciting. Even when Lelouch forms the UFN, it's made clear the Britannians were always going to make war on them anyway, since as Charles puts it all Lelouch did was put all of Britannia's enemies on the same side.

Just imagine something here.
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#15960: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:18:32 PM

I was never really sure on him but I think if he counts it may have been unintended by the writers. He's not really inciting the conflict, more inflaming one that was already started, and the part about him "pushing for a global war" when the UFN is founded seems to be referring to a single line of dialogue where he says they have a "just cause for war" which Tohdoh scoffs at. There's also a Freeze-Frame Bonus in the epilogue where we see Kallen kept a photo of all the Black Knights, including him, implying she was grateful for the help he gave them even though he jumped ship later.

Tehrannotaur Since: Mar, 2013
#15961: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:18:55 PM

[up][up]He uses his media connections to spread propaganda and deliberately inflame tensions into bloody war. He also goads Lelouch into taking the bloodiest option, even if it comes to his detriment. There's also that he gleefully sides with Schneizel when the latter announces "peace" by a nuclear holocaust, even getting excited at the prospect of billions dying from that.

Edited by Tehrannotaur on Jul 21st 2024 at 7:19:58 AM

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#15962: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:22:27 PM

[up][up] I honestly don't think he counts. All the reasons given in his entry for why he is one are either incredibly vague or association fallacies.

Also, the UFN pretty much does have "just cause for war" against Britannia. Britannia is a fascist, colonialist empire run by Nazi analogues who think it's their birthright to conquer the world and subjugate any racial groups they deem "inferior". They weren't going to be good neighbors to the UFN.

[up] I'm going to need specific examples for how Diethard "uses his media connections to spread propaganda and deliberately inflame tensions into bloody war" or "goads Lelouch into taking the bloodiest option, even if it comes to his detriment". As for him siding with Schneizel, he might not have cared or even been excited about billions dying, but he plays zero role in the firing of the FLEIJAs or operation of the Damocles. He never loads a FLEIJA, he never helps arm a FLEIJA, he never pushes a button to shoot a FLEIJA. If you took Diethard off the Damocles, Schneizel's operation wouldn't be hampered in the slightest.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Jul 21st 2024 at 7:34:37 AM

Just imagine something here.
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#15963: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:24:24 PM

If it wasn't for his actions in the final arc I would definitely be against him counting. I've seen him discussed on other forums and some fans thought he was hit with Character Derailment since he initially did seem to have genuine loyalty to Lelouch's cause, such as when they help repel the Chinese invasion and Diethard tells Kallen they need to show that protecting the people is their first priority.

Some of his suggestions also fall into Jerkass Has a Point- while ruthless, it's arguable that had Lelouch assassinated Suzaku as he suggested a lot of his later problems could have been avoided.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Jul 21st 2024 at 10:29:45 AM

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#15964: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:27:04 PM

[up] What actions? I just addressed it in my last post, but Diethard doesn't play any role in the firing of the FLEIJAs. He's definitely on board with it, but he doesn't actually commit any war crimes, directly or indirectly.

Just imagine something here.
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#15965: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:29:05 PM

I meant the fact that he's on-board with Schneizel planning to nuke millions of people does make him seem more evil than he did previously. I'm still not sure if he does enough on his own accord to stand out there.

The only scene I recall where he inflames tensions into a battle is when he broadcasts the footage of Euphemia's massacre, and he seems to think Lelouch wanted it.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Jul 21st 2024 at 10:32:14 AM

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#15966: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:31:16 PM

[up] If it's at any point shown that Diethard did anything to help Schneizel drop a nuke on innocent people or attempt to drop a nuke on innocent people, I'll happily retract my claim he doesn't qualify. But from what I recall that never happens in the series. Just being on the side of a heinous figure doesn't automatically make someone a CM.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Jul 21st 2024 at 7:31:59 AM

Just imagine something here.
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#15967: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:36:05 PM

That's my issue with him as well, I was never sure if he did enough on his own to stand out as heinous. In terms of his motive I don't think it's just sadism, he says he was disgusted with how the world was and admired Lelouch for shaking things up, plus he does initially defend Lelouch from Schneizel's accusations in the betrayal episode, and only goes along with it when he's unable to persuade the rest.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Jul 21st 2024 at 10:37:29 AM

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#15968: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:39:06 PM

[up] I don't even think Diethard is a sadist at all. He's an adrenaline junkie who wants to see upheaval in the world and his reason for siding with Lelouch and then Schneizel is because he finds both of them "exciting" for the change they're going to bring, even if it involves millions dying in the latter's case. He's not someone who enjoys people suffering necessarily, even if he gets rather cavalier about it towards the end.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Jul 21st 2024 at 7:39:44 AM

Just imagine something here.
PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#15969: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:39:39 PM

I’m gonna heavily refute taking that as a redeeming quality. He gets over it and happily assists Schneizel.

As for heinousness he’s hands off but I stand by it being noteworthy his intent is for a world war because he wants to document it and while Britannia is awful we see plenty is civilians get caught in the crossfire against the Black Knights. I’m fine if people disagree but I’m not really down to be told I twisted words just to list a CM.

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#15970: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:43:25 PM

[up] Diethard doesn't "assist Schneizel" in any way other than standing right next to him. He sides with him at the end, but he doesn't play any role in actually shooting off the FLEIJA warheads.

Even if he's fine or even giddy about a world war happening, said world war is caused primarily by Britannia and not him. As for civilians getting caught in battles with the Black Knights, I'm going to need specific examples but unless Diethard is the one putting them there or getting the Black Knights to attack areas with civilians in them that's not enough for him to qualify.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Jul 21st 2024 at 7:44:06 AM

Just imagine something here.
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#15971: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:45:38 PM

The war had pretty much started already and given how violent it is at the start of the first episode I don't think anyone needed much help from him. He says at one point his overall goal is to be the one to document Zero's rise and presumably he jumps onboard with Schneizel for similar reasons. It's not that he personally wants to kill a bunch of people, he just wants excitement to cover. He even admits that he would rather have seen Zero victorious before that story was "cancelled" by the betrayal.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Jul 21st 2024 at 10:47:25 AM

PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#15972: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:47:20 PM

He is portrayed as taking Schneizel’s side so when I “assist” as the word I’d kindly like for you to not take that as another opportunity to try and say I’m wrong about the character.

I feel the work portrays him as a propaganda minister aiming for a mass conflict and ensures it happens in media coverage as seen with broadcasting Euphie’s massacre. If you don’t think he counts that’s fine but the repeated insistence on being owed scenes or lines on a point of disagreement isn’t something I have to provide.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#15973: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:48:02 PM

Honestly keep Diethard. Not swayed by the arguments against.

Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#15975: Jul 21st 2024 at 7:48:57 PM

Keep Diethard

Edited by Snoketrope on Jul 21st 2024 at 7:49:06 AM

Bow to the Prototype

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