Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Cut Hela, Oswald and Chu.
Cut, Cut, CUT!...
Sorry, another cut proposal here. This is likely another controversial one? I'm sure it was grandfathered long time ago, being an action classic and a shining example of Heroic Bloodshed (currently the image source), and an old fav of mine that I've seen a dozen times as a teen... coming from a huge fan of Hong Kong action films it legit hurts me to suggest this (yes I'm serious), but here goes:
- The Killer (1989): Hay Wong Hoi/Johnny Weng is a cowardly, selfish and traitorous Triad boss and the employer of professional hitman Jeffery/Ah Jong. Wong Hoi sends Ah Jong to assassinate his own uncle so he could take over and then double-crosses Ah Jong by sending a group of hitmen after him for being spotted by the police detective Li Ying, gravely injuring an innocent child in the process. He starts to become increasingly more paranoid after Ah Jong tries to assassinate him in revenge and proceeds to mercilessly beat his best friend Sydney Fung/Fung Sei for information. Wong Hoi then unleashes a brutal assault on the church which serves as Ah Jong's hideout, killing the priest and Fung Sei, before taking Ah Jong's Love Interest Jennie hostage and attempting to kill both Ah Jong and Li even after they surrender. During the final showdown, Wong Hoi successfully lands two bullets in Ah Jong's eyes, murdering him and ensuring that his eyes cannot be used to fix Jennie's, and subsequently surrenders himself to the cops in a final desperate act to save his own skin.
The movie's popularity aside, I'm afraid Wong Hoi might not reach the baseline:
- He arranged for his uncle's assassination to take over the triads, which is a common trope. Even moreso in Hong Kong gangster flicks that depicts the triads in some sort of hierarchy... Wong Hoi's uncle is also a case of We Hardly Knew Ye - he shows up in one scene, was sniped in the head, bye-bye.
- We didn't know the uncle is a Benevolent Boss or something - it's not like Just Heroes, The Dragon Family, Return Engagement or King of Gambler where the film gives plenty of screentime / development to a senior mob boss to show how wise and fatherly they are before killing the guy to establish how irredeemably evil the respective CM responsible for their deaths is, Wong Hoi's uncle had like forty seconds of screentime. Audiences had literally zero attachments to this guy.
- Double-crosses the titular hero (Chow Yun-fat) which leads to a shootout on a beach (seen here
) - it's chaotic, true, but said beach is (weirdly) empty. The only casualty is a little girl hit by stray gunfire, otherwise everyone who dies in it are bad guys. And the child in question didn't die (she's there to establish the titular hero is a Hitman with a Heart)
- Wong became paranoid for his life, but that's after the hero tried to kill him (unsuccessfully). Him beating Fung Sei (the hero's bestie) is Cold-Blooded Torture, but that's another common trope.
- The writeup claims Wong Hoi killed Fung Sei, but that's untrue; a gravely injured Fung escapes from Wong's men, stumbled into the church, and begs to be killed in an I Cannot Self-Terminate way. So that happens.
- Launches a final assault on a church, becoming the Trope Codifier for Blood-Stained Glass Windows in the process. The film's (awesome) church finale
is here and... honestly, there are only four good guys threatened. The titular character, his police sidekick, his blind Love Interest and a priest, said priest is the sole bystander killed.
- Not mentioned in the writeup, but Wong Hoi also killed his dragon, Paul, for failing to kill the heroes.
- In Wong Hoi's final moments he held the Love Interest hostage (generic), tries shooting the heroes (just kill the heroes stuff) and kills the titular character... while he's being shot at. I've seen this movie several times, in their final moments both men are actively trying to shoot each other, Wong Hoi is NOT aiming for the eyes and just happens to score.
- Tries surrendering himself to the cops, Dirty Coward style, before getting shot.
So we're looking at a bodycount of maybe four or five (two by proxy): His uncle note , Fung Sei note , the priest, The Dragon Paul, and the titular protagonist note . And maybe one attempted, if we count the little girl caught in the beach shootout. And one Cold-Blooded Torture scene... that's it. From a guy who rules most of the Hong Kong underworld and with a near-endless supply of mooks at his disposal.
This is from a film with nearly 150 onscreen kills
- Tai killed his own godfather who adopted and raised him, takes over the triads and started a gang war that spirals out of control.
- Lee Pang does roughly the same a Tai from above, but has rape thrown in. Besides gunning down two children personally at one point.
- The Judge, admittedly from a HB film lower in bodycount, is still responsible for a instigating a shootout in the middle of busy streets, and later blew up a house full of people, including children.
- He Ying arranged for her father's death to take over his company, instigates a war in South-East Asia to eliminate her competitors, backstabs the entire titular team until almost everyone except the hero dies, and kidnaps one of the heroes' little daughter - a child suffering from kidney cancer - as a hostage, getting the child killed in the process with zilch remorse.
- Ah Tsui colludes with a traitor to arrange for his benevolent leader, Boss Lung's death, tricks entire triad families to attend Boss Lung's funeral before sneaking in his mooks (disguised as monks and pallbearers - hiding machine-guns in their clothing) and having them massacre everyone present, most being his former friends and one of them Boss Lung's five-year-old grandson. Before betraying the aforementioned traitor, effectively becoming The Starscream of another Starscream so he can take over the triad organization; and was also the one who ordered the heroes' wheelchair-bound mother killed via Molotov Cocktail.
- Paul Tai Chi-Man rules over the Shanghai drug market, had entire militaries in his pockets, has an Establishing Character Moment where he blows up and old man and a little girl for interrupting his banquet, is responsible for the climax' theater massacre when he had three hundred people shot to cover himself after his Engineered Public Confession; he also gets a Karma Houdini in the movie's The Bad Guy Wins ending.
- Madam Yiu was introduced biting out a tortured man's throat, and massacres a cell full of people packed like sardines out of spite when the hero escapes her clutches in the prologue. She later tries to feed the chained-up lancer to her giant boa constrictor pet, an animal she obviously starved into obedience.
- Marinda organized a Family Extermination at a wedding where hundreds of people are in attendance, she was even leading the carnage and expertly mows down a dozen bridesmaids fleeing for their lives via Uzi at one point.
- Johnny Wong forces Alan to kill his own godfather, and later starts a Die-Hard-in-A-Hospital scenario with over two hundred people killed a single night, alongside shooting up several innocent people on crutches unable to flee.
- Wong Cheung had far less resources than most examples, but still obtained a Klingon Promotion while working alone, tortured several people during his screentime, smothered an old woman to death slowly For the Evulz, kills a little girl via Force Feeding her dishwasher fluid, and one of his onscreen kills is a puppy shoved into a washing machine.
- The villains of A Better Tomorrow and Tragic Hero blew up restaurants filled with people to intimidate the heroes, but doesn't count for one reason or another (the latter, for instance, is visibly upset when he's disowned by his father and shouts at his old man "You always loved my brother more than me, didn't you?"... which is why he's never proposed, otherwise he might have a shot).
...sorry for the length, I'm a huge fan of this movie and the HB genre. But -
- Is The Killer one of the greatest action movies to exist? Yes, definitely.
- Is Wong Hoi a Complete Monster? For the genre, sorry, not really seeing it.
Edited by RobertTYL on Jul 15th 2024 at 11:00:48 PM
Can I also make the request we word things more sensitively when cutting G's stuff? I know the volume of mistakes is quite plentiful but that's already been acknowledged and I see repeats as similar to the request we stop leaving statements like "Omg this rapist villain is such a sick fuck, I'm vomiting while upvoting this" and I'm not sure if we think the note about civility should go to the policy thread or just informally be requested.
Ghal highlighted the issues with the villain, we've agreed they can stay off the list but there's room to be kind to each other and intense statements like the above feel like dragging G for an issue that's already been covered and this has been asked before Robert.
Please understand Robert there have been multiple requests on the civility front and always getting a "Well I'm just being thorough", "*Shrugs*", "It was just offhand" feels like they're being written off as "These people are overly sensitive" or "I'll just agree for the sake of appearances." I hope that's not the intent but it's important to communicate the concern.
It's not the work itself, so much as the Heroic Bloodshed genre.
...Though that makes me wonder: Could he be considered the template for future genre villains, like Hans Gruber was for action movies?
Edited by ACW on Jul 15th 2024 at 1:41:46 PM
I think I got a cut to request for one of my own candidates from Case Closed (EP
)
- "Metropolitan Police Detective Love Story III—The Case of Masayoshi Sato": The unnamed arsonist is a gleefully sadistic man who desires to "light up" Tokyo with flames. Before the events of the case, the arsonist started several fires across the city and also stabbed an innocent man to death. When witnessed starting another fire by the Detective Boys, the arsonist tries to kill them with a smile on his face. After his arrest, it is revealed that the arsonist had planned to blow up a fuel warehouse and burn the entire city down in a "beautiful carnival" of flames.
So my original EP was made using an unofficial translation of the manga which mixed up some of the wording (and I can't even find the translation anymore). I've since tracked down the official Viz Manga translation and also watched the anime with the official subtitles and I honestly don't think there's enough weight given to his final plan. For one the whole 'planning to burn down tokyo' bit is explained in a very short piece of dialogue between the police after his arrest which is completely removed from the anime. The full quote is "The arsonist launched into this crazy story about how he was plotting to knock over an oil tanker and turn tokyo into a sea of fire." For me, the plan being casually dismissed as a "crazy story" as well as its removal from the anime makes me think there isn't enough weight given to it for him the count since without that last bit he isn't bad enough.
Also minor note the other candidate I got up from the manga still counts and I'm currently double checking the Magnificent Bastard keepers I got up.
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Ah, one of those "bad on paper, but not emphasized enough in practice" things? Yeah, seems like a cut.
And to be clear, I wasn't saying we should cut Hans, but whether Killer dude could count under the same idea. (Though it looks like A Better Tomorrow is the Die Hard of the genre.)
Edited by ACW on Jul 15th 2024 at 5:49:40 AM

Fine with cutting Danes tbh. Not having any of his victim show up onscreen as actual character was tbh probbaly always too much for offstage vilainy even under revised rules.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."