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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#15526: Jul 10th 2024 at 4:04:07 AM

Cut Snee, cut Majesty.

I think cut Afton.

Honestly, I think I'm fine with Jack. I think there's just enough there.

TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15527: Jul 10th 2024 at 5:25:04 AM

What about Music/{{Sigh}'s version of jack the ripper ? He was brought up earlier. We already are probably cutting Malevolent Creation's Jack the Ripper. So can we take a look at this one as well to see if he should be cut too ?

Edited by TommySlenderman on Jul 10th 2024 at 5:39:36 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#15528: Jul 10th 2024 at 5:46:03 AM

I'm fine with keeping the first Jack. Sigh's Jack is my own, so I can't be objective there.

Like, for music, we can be a little more lenient on plot IMO.

Edited by ACW on Jul 10th 2024 at 8:51:15 AM

TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15529: Jul 10th 2024 at 5:57:01 AM

I agree with being more leniant on music, but there needs to be a plot no matter how simple, not just 1 or 2 vaguely seen or described events and a lot of postulating before , between and after them. A great example of this is randy newman's god song , little but enough plot and great characterisation of the main villain. And i just don't see the first jack as having enough plot in his song to qualify. I am not sure about the second jack , that is why i asked a discussion about him.

Edited by TommySlenderman on Jul 10th 2024 at 5:58:54 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#15530: Jul 10th 2024 at 6:10:02 AM

Well, FWIW, here are the lyrics for Sigh's Jack.

EDIT: And hell, here are the lyrics for my Dracula.

Edited by ACW on Jul 10th 2024 at 9:13:54 AM

TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15531: Jul 10th 2024 at 6:14:18 AM

I think sigh's jack can stay , there is enough story and characterisation there in my opinion.

EDIT : and i could be wrong but that dracula also seems good to stay.

Edited by TommySlenderman on Jul 10th 2024 at 6:19:17 AM

TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15532: Jul 10th 2024 at 6:22:34 AM

Can i get a couple more opinions on theManBehindhis La's Afton ? I have 2 cuts thus far.

Edited by TommySlenderman on Jul 10th 2024 at 6:22:48 AM

LoadsAndLoadsOfFreeTime Practically my Author Avatar (Season 2) Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
Practically my Author Avatar
#15533: Jul 10th 2024 at 6:37:50 AM

I brought him up earlier, but after thinking about it, I think Sigh's Jack can stay. It closes with an entire Truck Driver's Gear Change verse about him being a Karma Houdini, unlike MC's Jack (which is all about the Cruel and Unusual Death aspect) or the Misfits' Jack (which only subtly alludes to the fact in the final verse). Also because it's one of my favorite songs of all time.

Vlad/Drac is a definite keeper, his song has more than enough plot IMO.

Edited by LoadsAndLoadsOfFreeTime on Jul 10th 2024 at 6:40:52 AM

♪ DUN-DUN-DUN-DUN DUN ♪ "HWUH-HEOW" ♪ NRRRRRRRRR ♪ *BZZZZZT*
Kronger3124 IT'S TV TIME! from Your Walls Since: Nov, 2023 Relationship Status: Whoa, they're bisexual! I didn't know that!
#15534: Jul 10th 2024 at 7:29:42 AM

I'm gonna abstain for Afton... for now. I'm still thinking about him.

In other news, I want to give the Endgame Dark Lord a little update to include one thing I missed and rewrite one error I made.

From:

To:

Opinions?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
LoadsAndLoadsOfFreeTime Practically my Author Avatar (Season 2) Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#15540: Jul 10th 2024 at 9:28:53 AM

Finished reading Fairy Tail so i would like to discuss three villains

First is Jackal. His entry doesn't mention one of his crimes, so here is rewrite

  • The "Etherious" Jackal, member of Tartaros's Nine Demon Gates, is a sadistic psychopath who assassinated the Magic Council. A lover of Sadistic Choices, Jackal forced a former councilman to choose between his life and that of his own granddaughter. Later, Jackal imposes one upon Lucy where he will either detonate an elder councilman or a pregnant woman. Already viewing humans as mere playthings, Jackal later pettily kills one of his own guildmates, showing his monstrous nature extends to even fellow demons.

  • The "Etherious" Jackal, member of Tartaros's Nine Demon Gates, is a sadistic psychopath who assassinated the Magic Council. During battle against Natsu, Wendy and Lucy, Jackal blows up a whole town. A lover of Sadistic Choices, Jackal forced a former councilman to choose between his life and that of his own granddaughter. Later, Jackal imposes one upon Lucy where he will either detonate an elder councilman or a pregnant woman. Already viewing humans as mere playthings, Jackal later pettily kills one of his own guildmates, showing his monstrous nature extends to even fellow demons.

Second is former CM Zancrow. This is trivial but apart from heinousness can we add another potential reason for not qualifying? I noticed there are some indications of geniune loyalty and respect toward Hades. For example when Natsu ask him was he trained by a god, he replies if Hades can be called a god then yes. Moreover, Zancrow attacked Ultear and Meredy because he believed they had betrayed Hades.

Third is Jose Porla. I can't find any discussion about him. Is he really heinous enough? His worst crime, an attempt to destroy Magnolia alongside Fairy Tail, is hardly unique. Two members of Tartaros guild already listed destroyed at least one town each. The leader of Avatar cult Arlock attempted to massacre all 30000 inhabitants of a town. Grimoire Heart destroyed Meredy's hometown. Most importantly, Laxus who is now one of good guys attempted to destroy Magnolia with his Thunder Palace attack and later kill everyone with Fairy Law. He also had six girls from guild turned into stone and it was said they will turn to dust in three hours unless magic is reversed. When comes to resources Laxus only had his three bodyguards while Jose was a master of one of strongest guild in Fiore.

TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15541: Jul 10th 2024 at 10:07:10 AM

Your rewrite sounds pretty goood. As for jose , yeah , he doesn't sound heinous enough and his crimes don't stand out. If he is a complete monster , he should be cut.

Speaking of rewrites , i think we should do something for the joker. The main comic version of him i mean. His entry only talks about his new52 crimes , but he has done a lot of despicable crimes during the rebirth era and beyond , and that is the same version as new52 joker. So , a rewrite or addition is in order.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#15542: Jul 10th 2024 at 10:13:01 AM

I think we treat rebirth as a reboot since lots of the new 52 is non Canon in it. Like the red hood gang stuff in joker's entry didn't happen as that was part of year zero which got decanonised in favor of using year one again.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15543: Jul 10th 2024 at 10:18:21 AM

So , is the joker not a complete rebirth in main dc rebirth and beyond ? Am i missing something ? I mean i guess he has had some kind of heroic moments like fighting the batman who laughs and maybe even evil has standards by calling him an abomination and saying even he wouldn't do the stuff he would do. In a batman comic the joker got 3 personalities and suffered regrets of his past life and the 3 jokers story (debatably canon) showed him remembering his family and wanting to be with them. But i thought stuff like that fits in the special case compete monster category for the joker. I don't know. Maybe i am missing something.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#15545: Jul 10th 2024 at 10:21:11 AM

[up][up]I've given up with DC continuity. It's way too screwy for me.

Can all the rewrites please go to the Drafts?

TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15546: Jul 10th 2024 at 11:16:41 AM

Yeah , dc continuity is a mess at the best of times.

Anyways , can i get more opinions on The Man Behindhis La afton ? I have 2 cuts thus far and 2 abstains.

Edited by TommySlenderman on Jul 10th 2024 at 11:17:00 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#15547: Jul 10th 2024 at 11:52:10 AM

I don't know, I recall there being a reason why Jose is heinous enough to keep. Can someone else who read the manga fill in?

Splonk Harbinger of Cringe from Basement Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Harbinger of Cringe
#15548: Jul 10th 2024 at 1:00:16 PM

Having been the original person to propose Afton, I think I am leaning keep currently. For one I don't really think the "we don't see his crimes" thing holds up considering we literally see him just before he kills the missing children as welll as the aftermath of his springlock failure where we see the souls of the dead kids. In general there's a lot of dead child imagery that makes me feel it is enough to constitute on-screen villainy.

As for the Crying Child thing? Yeah I understand where this is coming from. But my main argument against it in my EP was that it came off as more William having an object of worship as opposed to genuinely caring about his son. With the way he speaks of him being that he'll "beat his brother bloody for him" which sounds less so like he truly cares and more like he's using him as an excuse to kill his own son, something he clearly just wanted to do anyway. Plus the line "I'll bring you back but better" also implies that he sees his own son as something that can be "fixed to perfection" which again, comes off as rather objectifying.

I'm ultimately fine with Afton being cut, but I just wanted to offer my two cents as the person who originally proposed him.

My mere presence makes everyone's day worse.
TommySlenderman Since: Jul, 2024
#15549: Jul 10th 2024 at 1:12:21 PM

I get where you are coming from , but i still have to disagree. While yes we do see him wearing the spring bonnie outfit and after that we see the kids souls before the springloc failure , that is all that we see. 3 still images for all of 3 seconds combined. At best that is cameos , as that scene isn't elaborated at all. How many other villain songs have been cut for having just as many references. Because , basically that is what it amounts to rather than on screen crimes or acts. And all that still doesn't change that the rest of the "villainous acts" are only afton bragging and boasting about how evil and bad he himself is with no seen or described crimes at all. Plus , the song has no plot , as i said previously. Just bragging and boasting with no seen or described crimes.

Now , i said my opinion on why william does care abou the crying child and addressed the points. The "i'll bring you back but better" line , sounds less like objectification and worship and more like he genuinely want to bring his son back and make him immortal or powerfull like himself because he cares for him. Plus , the line "i'll beat your brother bloody for you" sounds less like he is trying to justify it to himself and more like he genuinely wants to take revenge for michael accidentally killling the crying child. These lines are important as they explain why william has such a deep hatred of michael and if he didn't care about the crying child or just saw him as an object he wouldn't have such a deep hatred of michael.

Ultimately , the lines quite heavily imply that his care is genuine. Twisted , but genuine. And his crimes are off screen , cameos or boasting like every villain. He is a cut.

Edited by TommySlenderman on Jul 10th 2024 at 1:17:31 AM

Splonk Harbinger of Cringe from Basement Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Harbinger of Cringe
#15550: Jul 10th 2024 at 1:17:13 PM

I... wouldn't really call it a "cameo"? I mean, that scene in particular is context to how William became Springtrap, so it does have some necessary context behind it. Which also shows that this song does have a skeleton of a plot it follows.

As for your second point, I honestly don't really have much to say about it that I haven't already said. You have your viewpoint, which is valid, and I have mine.

For now, I'm just gonna abstain. I wouldn't really lose any sleep over whatever consensus this removal makes anyway.

My mere presence makes everyone's day worse.

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