Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Since you messaged me about this, I said that
in terms of genuine loyalty—the example being talked about was Azure, who was happy to be killed by her master, and from that we can infer she was a genuinely loyal, devoted servant willing to die for him even if she got nothing out of it.
Not familiar with most of the above, but the High Priestess and Lyblac at least are classic Psycho Supporters who serve their masters out of sadism, or because they're fanatics who allow their masters to use them however because they see them as an extension of their ego.
Probably could have explained that better in my linked post, no mucho bueno with words.
Also, the bit about extremism was in regards to a Well-Intentioned Extremist, not political extremism or anything of that sort.
That being said, in your message to me you said you and several others were planning on doing these cuts. Very curious who these others are; there was an issue earlier this month
with sockpuppets claiming to be speaking on behalf of a bunch of others. I'd like to make sure that's not starting up again.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jun 27th 2024 at 5:17:14 AM
Let's try this:
- Azar is the cruel, hypocritical, and treacherous Grand Sage of Sumeru. During the events of the Sumeru Archon Quest, Azar is one of the driving forces behind most of the nation's troubles by collaborating with Il Dottore of the Fatui in a blasphemous effort to create a new God of Wisdom to replace Lesser Lord Kusanali. Throughout the story, Azar serves as an obstructive scumbag who punishes others for petty reasons, stirs up racial tensions between the people of the desert and rainforest, abuses the power of his position to create new laws to suit his whims, and is willing to sacrifice as many innocent lives as it takes to get what he wants. Finally, Azar is completely untrustworthy, willing to betray anyone, including the Fatui and his nation's own god, for his own ends.
Arcade rewrite works.
Okay, when it comes to Nui as someone familiar with the series, I would've actually be all in for cutting her had we not gotten scenes that establish her as jsut a wantonly bloodthirsty lunatic who will go behind Ragyo's back to fulfill her whims, which Ragyo only allows because she knows even she can't control her, and when one of such attempts to screw around ended up putting Ragyo's plans at risk and she may need to apologize to her, Nui threatens the life of the person who brings it up, which shows her devotion to Ragyo was because she is the one that enabled her whims, to which her sacrifice was anyway to ensure the biggest bloodbath in history, i.e. the annihilation of all life on Earth, can happen through Ragyo's hands.
While obviously not the same exact circumstances and situation and all, I really don't feel any different to her as I would to say Ghirahim in which they are such bloodthirsty sadists, they would put the world's doom by the ambitions of their master over their own lives.
So I'm personally a keep to her.
Edited by Dude-of-Wealth-And-Taste on Jun 27th 2024 at 2:37:35 PM
Till all are one.Keep high priestess. Her treatment of her daughters, all of whom are part Aku, shows she has no true love for Aku as a person.
Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!Nui Harime kills herself to give Ragyo a power up. Cut.
Lyblac from Octopath worships her father as the god of evil but it's still her father so cut.
Also based on the above discussions it seems like extremism is also mitigating and since by definition extremism is extreme political and/or religious views, FFXVI's Imreann and Warden Melnikov should be cut.
No, we're not going to process these unless you actually bother to elaborate on your individual cases for each cut. One thing we're not doing is blanket "if A goes, then B, C, D and E also go." We do this case-by-case for a reason.
I've actually got a Marvel villain I want to chop. From issue #5 of Champions (2016):
- Issue #5: Sheriff Studdard is the racist chief of Daly County's police. He uses his influence to spread hatred and inspire violence against marginalized people. Studdard bombs a mosque and, when confronted by the Champions, threatens to make examples of them as well.
Studdard is an ugly Hate Sink but that's all he is. His body count sits at exactly zero. The mosque bombing kills nobody, and while I'd be happy to vouch for attempted murders, we see a measly three citizens being pulled out from the flames.
Having no superpowers isn't a case for keeping him, and neither is the Realism-Induced Horror of his crimes, because Champions specifically deals in more topical issues; civil rights, systemic corruption, politics. Studdard is outclassed by a bunch of other villains, even in his own comic (the third issue has an Islamic terrorist who orders a crowd of dozens massacred) who go way further than him.
Edited by Starkrafty on Jun 27th 2024 at 5:01:07 AM
Edited by LoadsAndLoadsOfFreeTime on Jun 27th 2024 at 6:35:40 AM
I don't want the world, I just want your half.Small adition and edit for First Firmament’s entry.
- The Ultimates (2015): The First Firmament is the egoistical Anthropomorphic Personification of the first universe. He created the Aspirants to worship him, until some of them rebelled and became the Celestials, leading to a war which shattered the Firmament's essence and created the first Multiverse. The First Firmament went into hiding and plotted his revenge, determined to once again become all there is. After the birth of the Eight Cosmos, the First Firmament captures Eternity and starts draining his powers while having the Aspirants infiltrate the Multiverse and spread his corruption, causing countless worlds to be destroyed. He manipulates Master Order and Lord Chaos into killing the Living Tribunal and combining with In-Betweener and each other into Logos, whom he uses to kill the Celestials and infect Galactus with a hunger that would cause him to devour all space and time. When his plot to absorb the Multiverse fails and Eternity is freed, the First Firmament decides to just kill him and destroy the Multiverse.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jun 27th 2024 at 11:29:11 AM
Just realized one of Vilgax's writeups has a mistake.
- Alien Force & Ultimate Alien: Vilgax forces planets' strongest fighters to duel him under threat of annihilation so as to steal their powers and dominate their worlds. Conscripting Albedo to his side only to betray him and leave him to suffer in a mutated form, Vilgax plans to use the Omnitrix to transform any life he chooses into his monstrous slaves and lay siege to the cosmos. After his initial defeat, Vilgax becomes the herald of Diagon, hoping to use the ancient creature's powers to override the will of the universe with his own.
It should be "Dagon", not "Diagon".
Oh, by the way, I will be reserving Cult of the Lamb: The First Verse if no one minds.
I have another cut from The Count of Monte Cristo (2002):
- Armand Dorleac is the sadistic warden of the Chateau d'If. Despite knowing all the prisoners within the prison are innocent, Dorleac subjects them to horrific conditions and mistreats them all regularly, pronounced by torturing and whipping them upon the anniversary of their incarceration, which begins on the first day of their internment. Visiting Edmond every year to torture and flog him, Dorleac mocks the very idea of punishment, once telling Edmond to ask God for help with the taunting promise to "stop the moment he shows up."
Here's the issue...the proposal and the writeup made it seem like Armand was doing this to a whole prison full of people. In actuality, the only prisoners we know of are the protagonist Edmond, and another old prisoner named Faria (who is never, not once, indicated to receive the same spiteful treatment Edmond receives).
Armand is an evil Hate Sink but his evil is fully limited to "torturing and imprisoning The Hero." There's never any indication Armand is subjecting anyone else to this fate. Add the fact that I think the film's version of Fernard is so much worse—not only does he condemn Edmond to the Hellhole Prison to begin with, he's a repeat murderer who tries to trick a father and son into a Duel to the Death.
Altogether, "cut" Armand, says I. The writeup makes the purview of his crimes seem wider than it actually is.

Based on past discussions and Bellatrix's cut I have what should be a few clear ones since some pages ago someone said "loyalty in and of itself is redeeming" or something like that.
The High Priestess from Samurai Jack was loyal enough to Aku to get impregnated by him and goes through childbirth to give him assassins. Cut.
Nui Harime kills herself to give Ragyo a power up. Cut.
Lyblac from Octopath worships her father as the god of evil but it's still her father so cut.
Also based on the above discussions it seems like extremism is also mitigating and since by definition extremism is extreme political and/or religious views, FFXVI's Imreann and Warden Melnikov should be cut.