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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14926: Jun 21st 2024 at 9:48:46 AM

Film!Vidal:

  • Pan's Labyrinth: Captain Vidal is far more terrifying than the fantastical monsters in the same work. Vidal first shows his nastiness when two poachers, a father and son, are brought to him in the dead of night, his men suspecting them of being rebels against the regime. He beats the younger man's face in with a bottle simply for defending his father against Vidal's accusations before shooting them both with a vague air of boredom and pleasure. When the men are proven not to be rebels, Vidal shows no remorse, only belittling his men to be more careful next time. At one point, Vidal captures a rebel with a horrible stutter and cheerfully shows the man his torture instruments before offering to let him go if he can clearly count to three. He fails. Vidal is married to the young heroine's mother solely so she'll bear him an heir, and shows no concern over the possible death of his wife in childbirth. When the doctor attending her gives the stuttering torture victim a Mercy Kill, Vidal coldly guns him down. At the film's end, Vidal's stepdaughter Ofelia tries to rescue her baby brother, but Vidal catches her and promptly shoots her fatally. It's no accident that Vidal's place at the head of the table in the dinner scene parallels that of the Pale Man; each qualifies as a Monstrous Humanoid in his own way, one literal, one figurative.

Since Pale Man's going up, can we chop the first sentence and last sentence?

  • Pan's Labyrinth: Captain Vidal first shows his nastiness when two poachers, a father and son, are brought to him in the dead of night, his men suspecting them of being rebels against the regime. He beats the younger man's face in with a bottle simply for defending his father against Vidal's accusations before shooting them both with a vague air of boredom and pleasure. When the men are proven not to be rebels, Vidal shows no remorse, only belittling his men to be more careful next time. At one point, Vidal captures a rebel with a horrible stutter and cheerfully shows the man his torture instruments before offering to let him go if he can clearly count to three. He fails. Vidal is married to the young heroine's mother solely so she'll bear him an heir, and shows no concern over the possible death of his wife in childbirth. When the doctor attending her gives the stuttering torture victim a Mercy Kill, Vidal coldly guns him down. At the film's end, Vidal's stepdaughter Ofelia tries to rescue her baby brother, but Vidal catches her and promptly shoots her fatally.

StrainsOfHorror Since: May, 2024
#14927: Jun 21st 2024 at 9:51:36 AM

I always thought that last sentence was too clunky. Chop away.

Edited by StrainsOfHorror on Jun 21st 2024 at 11:52:08 AM

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
#14928: Jun 21st 2024 at 10:26:11 AM

Yes... you know who else should we chop?

Manga.Devils Line - has a currently-cut candidate, Kirio Kurihara, EP'd right here. The whole thing is available online btw, that I took the liberty to check out while slacking in the office note 


Kirio Kikuhara, also known as Zero Two, is the commander of the Chosen Civil Community, or CCC, an organization dedicated to the extermination of devils. In the past, Kikuhara murdered his own mother and psychologically tortured half-devil Yuuki Anzai by making him witness his kind's animalistic nature. In the present he orders Nanako Tenjo to assassinate Anzai, while he has Ren Murakami slash a woman's throat in Ikebukuro on live television, leading to the devils there being overcome by their bloodlust and feed on her; this would expose devils to the public, which led to lynch mobs forming to persecute and murder innocent devils. Kikuhara would then order Murakami to kill Nanako when she failed to kill Anzai, before killing Murakami himself once he served his purpose. When Nanako survives and helps F Squad expose Kikuhara's crimes, Kikuhara arranges nine people to be killed by devils before turning the blood-crazed devils on F Squad, hoping to use the devils to kill them and frame them should they survive.

The write-up is correct... but there are two details, either left out or completely glossed over.

1.) Kirio Kikuhara's childhood...

...in a word, is gawd-awful. His single mother, Yuzuru, is a Child Hater who outright neglects Kirio or left him in the hands of caretakers, and didn't even attend to her own son whenever Kirio was sick. As detailed in a flashback, as a child Kirio only sees his mother from behind, and fantasizing about the woman who birthed him but barely spoke to him... Kirio would eventually develop an incestous relationship with his mother, which leads to him pushing Yuzuru off a balcony at age 15.

The EP brushed aside his mother's abuse with words like "He never seemed to be affected by his mother afterwards"... but that's kind of harsh. Because at some point in the manga, Kirio had an arguement with his Number Two, his Cold Sniper henchwoman Nanako Tenjo, Code Name Zero Seven (I'll get to her later, hold on), shoots at her... and missed. When Anzai, the story's MC confronts Kirio in one of the last few chapters, they get this conversation:

Anzai: Zero Seven came to bring you back, to protect you. Isn't that the sort of family love you wanted from Yuzuru?
Kirio: I don't... want to talk about that. You understand nothing. Zero Seven is just like Yuzuru. The way she looks at me reminds me of Yuzuru.
Anzai: Then why... don't you kill her? Even at the hideout, you didn't shoot to kill. You're good enough to aim for the head. You hate us, but you can't kill us. So maybe there's something you'd want to say to us...
...you have something you want to say, didn't you? But you can't say it to her anymore. What did you want to say to Yuzuru?
Kirio: ...[broken voice] mother...

For a more detailed context, Kirio refrained from shooting Nanako despite her betrayal, because when he sees Nanako's eyes... he saw his dead mom. Saying "Kirio isn't affected by his mother's Parental Neglect" is false, Yuzuru treating her son like crap during Kirio's childhood must've broken him in some way.

And then there's this —

2.) Nanako Tenjo

The EP mentioned someone called Nanako Tenjo a.k.a Zero Two a few times, reading like she's a mere henchwoman. In the story's context? Nanako is Kirio's Old Flame (wiki has more details) during college where she fell for him, until Kirio rejected Nanako with the reasoning he can't fall in love with people due to his childhood; when Kirio exacts his plans, Nanako serves as a sorta-dragon to Kirio's schemes until they betrayed each other due to conflicting interests.

From the EP, there's a brief mention of Kirio getting scarred by a Car Bomb and... stopped right there. But in the manga... the EP didn't mention Kirio's fate after surviving the bombing.


Chapter 68, aptly titled "Kirio Kikuhara" is a "Where Are They Now?" Epilogue taking place six months later - turns out after his plans are foiled, Kirio moved to a secret location downtown, changed his name, and works as a gardener and handyman, becoming really chummy to an elderly lady who's his next-door neighbor (he's her regular gardener and allegedly helped her change her lightbulbs too...)

A reformed Nanako Tenjo and another friend of hers managed to track down Kirio and they actually sorted out their differences without a hitch — Kirio lets Nanako and her friend spend a night in his cabin, makes them onigiri-balls for dinner and there's a Splash Panel-Happy Flashback depicting Kirio and Nanako in their college days. Heck, Kirio didn't even die in the manga - the last time the audience sees him, he's boarding a plane to Vietnam, tells Nanako's friend to "take good care of Nanako, alright?"

Regardless what Kirio did in the story, his friendship with Nanako is still... there.


But there are two versions of Devil's Line! The manga, and a 12-Episode Anime...

Yes, maybe the EP was for the anime (that I watched the night before checking the manga), a Compressed Adaptation that condenses 70-ish chapters into 12 episodes.

In which Kirio's redeeming qualities (his tragic past, friendship with Nanako) are Adapted Out. But that runs into the opposite problem - Kirio's crimes in the manga are also Adapted Out, or simply toned down. Most of the show is about characters talking about human-vampire conspiracies, some minor vampire-v-redshirts fighting, and Kirio creepily planning stuff.

The lynch mob scenes in the manga? Not in the anime, most of what we see are protestors running around waving signs and all that. There are some vampire attacks, but they're just generic rampage scenes and mostly focuses on the main characters rather than civilian casualties. One scene in the final episode sees Kirio walking down a prison filled with tortured vampires, but that turns out to be All Just a Dream that the show didn't have the courtesy to confirm if it's real.

Then Kirio gets unceremoniously bombed (didn't survive unlike the manga), ending his arc right there.


Either way, cut regardless of version. Super-solid cut in case of the manga - Kirio's Freudian Excuse regarding his mother is legit and his friendship with Nanako is 100% genuine, that the last two chapters cements. His anime counterpart OTOH is a generic "Tuesday" villain.

[down] Yes. Thank you, that's precisely my point.

Edited by RobertTYL on Jun 22nd 2024 at 1:40:05 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14929: Jun 21st 2024 at 10:32:24 AM

So this suffers from he is bad enough in the manga but has redeeming qualities. But isn't bad enough in the anime without any.

Cut. Also cut Fouchet.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 21st 2024 at 10:32:35 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#14930: Jun 21st 2024 at 10:51:49 AM

ACW:Works. I agree that it makes no sense to point out that Vidal is the only monster when there is now the Pale Man.

I watched episode 3 of Castle season 8 and overall psychiatrist Barbara Lillstrom fits the bill. Her worst crime is in fact she is psychologically torturing students and although the government hired her and used students, it is clear that psychologically abusing students is solely her methods. Amy shows very well how painful and excruciating they are. The only thing that is not clear is that she planned to subject Castle and his daughter to the same torture. They are caught and locked up, but it is not clear what they plan to do with them. But in any case, she has a unique niche, a considerable number of victims, and she is a clear example of the fact that C Ms can be monsters without even killing anyone. She really will need to be rewritten a little.

Solid cut both versions of Kirio Kikuhara. Honestly in the manga, even without his childhood and relationship with Nanako, the fact that he seems to have abandoned his plans after they failed and began to live peacefully and basically his entire epilogue is simply not suitable for CM. It seems the manga author really doesn't view Kirio as a terrible, incorrigible monster. It's unclear how G missed all this (if he actually read the manga). And the fact that in the anime he’s standard...meh. Great job Robert, as always.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14931: Jun 21st 2024 at 11:22:01 AM

Did you watch Pandora/ lynch pin and Scared to Death.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14932: Jun 21st 2024 at 11:26:22 AM

How many votes does Fanfic!Frieza have to cut?

Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#14933: Jun 21st 2024 at 11:31:49 AM

[up]Frieza has 5 cut voices. I also say "cut". Now 6.

[up][up]I guess you're asking? Not yet, but I plan to watch and study it. I also plan to check out two M Bs from G.

Starkrafty Since: Sep, 2017
#14934: Jun 21st 2024 at 11:45:13 AM

Chop Kirio. Both of them.

I have a rewrite for good old Judge Claude Frollo himself. I rewrote his entry years ago, but ehhh, looking back on it, it's not very good. Weird sentence structure and, moreover, casually referring to the Romani people by what's commonly accepted to be a slur over and over and over again.

Old:

  • The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney): Judge Claude Frollo, the fanatical Minister of Justice, is a deeply prejudiced and hypocritical official who seeks to totally exterminate the gypsies scattered around Paris. Frollo introduces himself by murdering a fleeing mother and nearly drowning her infant child for the crime of being deformed. With the archdeacon's intervention instilling the fear of divine retribution in him, Frollo dubbed the child Quasimodo and raised him in isolation under emotional abuse. Deeply enraptured with the gypsy woman Esmeralda, Frollo resolves to make Esmeralda his or watch her burn, offering "choose me or the fire" when she's tied to the stake. Frollo has gigantic sections of Paris burned in his further attempt to find the gypsies, orders a family torched alive in their own house, and even tries to murder Quasimodo himself in the end after having seemingly murdered Esmeralda, forsaking all piety to reveal the monster he's always been within.

New:

  • The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney): Judge Claude Frollo, the Minister of Justice, holds Paris in a vice grip, "long[ing] to purge the world of vice and sin," seeing corruption "everywhere...except within." Frollo viciously persecutes the Romani population of Paris and seeks to exterminate them, regularly rounding up groups of them for execution, and at one point orders an entire family burned alive solely because he thinks they may have provided the Romani shelter. Frollo introduces himself murdering a fleeing mother and nearly drowning her infant child for the crime of being deformed, only sparing the boy because he fears the damnation of his soul. Frollo dubs the child Quasimodo—"half-made"—and raises him through emotional abuse, isolating Quasimodo in the highest tower of Notre Dame. Deeply enraptured with the Romani woman Esmeralda and in denial of his own lust, Frollo resolves to make Esmeralda his or see her damned to Hell. Frollo has gigantic sections of Paris burned in the climax and vows he'll have Esmeralda for himself even if it means burning all of Paris to the ground, and he offers her to "choose me or the fire" when he finally has Esmeralda tied on a stake. Frollo even tries to murder Quasimodo himself in the end after having seemingly murdered Esmeralda, forsaking all piety to reveal the monster he's always been within. Arguably the darkest villain the Animated Canon has ever produced, and utterly incapable of seeing any flaw within himself, Judge Frollo is a man so thoroughly consumed by his own sin that he'd rather blame God rather than own up to his own failings.

Edited by Starkrafty on Jun 21st 2024 at 12:49:53 PM

Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#14935: Jun 21st 2024 at 11:57:39 AM

The rewrite looks great! I don’t think the last two sentences are necessary, but that’s just me.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Jun 21st 2024 at 11:59:25 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#14936: Jun 21st 2024 at 12:01:51 PM

Love the Frollo rewrite!

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Evanpotter09 Since: Sep, 2023 Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
Kronger3124 IT'S TV TIME! from Your Walls Since: Nov, 2023 Relationship Status: Whoa, they're bisexual! I didn't know that!
#14938: Jun 21st 2024 at 12:11:04 PM

[tup] for the Frollo rewrite

Sorry for doing this again, but can people please vote on my Afton rewrite? It's got only 4 votes so far (if we also count those from the original rewrite and not just the revised version), which is not enough if I remember correctly

Edited by Kronger3124 on Jun 21st 2024 at 9:11:24 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14939: Jun 21st 2024 at 12:12:21 PM

[tup]frollo and Afton rewrites

@Ghar:Yes was wondering about the to others. I think the Pandora villain was fine but it's been years since I saw that.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#14940: Jun 21st 2024 at 12:12:52 PM

[tup]Afton rewrite. Very good work.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Jun 21st 2024 at 12:13:02 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#14941: Jun 21st 2024 at 12:20:20 PM

Both writeups are good.

Dude-of-Wealth-And-Taste (Apprentice) Relationship Status: Become a part of me!
#14942: Jun 21st 2024 at 12:25:22 PM

Dig the Frollo and Afton rewrites.

Till all are one.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14943: Jun 21st 2024 at 12:50:34 PM

See I'm kinda torn on Romani vs. gypsies. I know the latter's considered a slur, but isn't the latter also what the film uses? It's an interesting case there.

Also a bit lengthy, but that I don't mind, considering it's, you know, Frollo.

EDIT: Maybe have a note mentioning the film uses the term Gypsy? I dunno.

Edited by ACW on Jun 21st 2024 at 4:05:16 AM

PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#14944: Jun 21st 2024 at 1:16:59 PM

I think Romani is fine. To use an extreme example, we wouldn’t lift the diction directly of a white supremacist villain who insisted on solely calling blacks by the n-word.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14945: Jun 21st 2024 at 1:22:19 PM

Eh, that's fair. Though is it only Frollo who uses the term? I saw the movie, but in theaters.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#14946: Jun 21st 2024 at 1:25:27 PM

Yeah, it's admittedly a weird case because in fairness, even the Romani people themselves only ever refer to themselves by the term "gypsies" in the film—from Clopin to Esmeralda herself—but we from a modern perspective can recognize that the term carries offensive terminology and so adjust the write-up to represent the proper terminology.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#14947: Jun 21st 2024 at 1:27:19 PM

Like the Frollo rewrite, and while yes the movie only uses that one term, I still think we should avoid having an entry with a slur in it

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14949: Jun 21st 2024 at 1:37:59 PM

Wasn't their an Ask The Tropers thread discussion about this. Can't remember what decision they said to go with.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#14950: Jun 21st 2024 at 1:43:51 PM

I found at least two different ATTs on this exact issue and it doesn't look like either one ever reached consensus.


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