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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

Drepag Since: Oct, 2018
#14901: Jun 20th 2024 at 5:12:14 PM

Hello! There's something that's been bugging me and something I'd like to discuss: namely, Baldur's Gate III and its rather long list of C Ms. We've got six, and I have some doubts about three of them: I'm not quite sure if they qualify, and I feel like I must bring them up. Okay, here it goes.

The first candidate is Cazador Szarr, the main villain of Astarion's questline. He absolutely meets the heinousness standard, being responsible for the disappearance and torment of over 7,000 people he turned into spawn, children included, all so he can sacrifice them to Mephistopheles in a ritual that would grant him incredible power as the Vampire Ascendant. There are some things that make me doubt his inclusion though.

While currently Cazador is a heartless bastard who cares for no one but himself, he didn't always use to be this way. Before we fight him, we can see the memories of the time he was a vampire spawn serving his own master, Velioth - and when Cazador risked his master's wrath to see an old friend, Velioth punished him by making him watch as he drained said friend dry. His life as a spawn was horrific, and the mention of his friend makes it clear he did use to care about others until the abuse broke him. Furthermore, he can potentially be out-heinoused by another vampire - Astarion, if he ascends and sacrifices the 7,000 souls to hell himself. If Astarion ascends, he quickly becomes just as bad as Cazador - and it is heavily implied he will become even worse. There's also something I've learned from his character page - reading Cazador's thoughts as he lays in his coffin following his boss battle reveals this:

"I sleep, but cannot rest. I live, but cannot die. I am eternal, and I grieve."

I can see deeply buried regret and self-loathing in these words. I think it's a lot of potentially mitigating qualities, that make me think he's not quite CM material, vile as he is.

The second candidate is Enver Gortash, arguably the game's main villain as a whole before the big twist during the finale. Once again, he absolutely is heinous enough to make the cut, Freudian Excuse of being sold into slavery to a devil (a CM himself, at that) aside, but his relationship with the Dark Urge is what makes me wonder about him.

He seems to be genuinely fond of Durge, and during their reunion, he straight-up admits he truly liked him. It's worth mentioning that the Emperor, your Mind Flayer ally, someone extremely analytical, logical and perceptive by nature, is 100 percent certain Gortash is being genuine. While I'm more iffy about Gortash than Szarr, as his friendship/relationship with the Dark Urge would absolutely end in a betrayal - their end goals are simply too incompatible - I thought he was worth mentioning.

The third candidate is Dolor, a serial killer aspiring to join the Cult of Bhaal. With him I'm certain - the guy completely fails the heinousness standard. Other than his sadistic modus operandi (paralyzing his victims and cutting off their hands while they're still conscious) and having killed his own mother, he completely doesn't stick out.

The Bhaalists are all deranged murderers and there are dozens of them in the streets at the time Dolor operates. You meet random Bhaalists murdering refugees for the hell of it, murdering a clown and chopping the corpse to pieces, you find notes during which Bhaalists compare their killing methods constantly trying to one-up each other. Even if you disregard the generic Bhaal cultists, Dolor has so much competition in Act Three alone - cultists of Bane who give away toys with bombs stuffed into them, Cazador who's about to sacrifice 7,000 people to a devil, Gortash who has his Steel Watchers murder children, Mystic Carrion who murdered several people to act as his undead slaves and Soul Jars, Auntie Ethel who ate a baby alive to warp her into a hag, Raphael and the way he torments his debtors. Compared to all of those, Dolor seems like just another Cultist of Bhaal, with only his preferred method of killing making him stick out in any way.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#14902: Jun 20th 2024 at 5:55:50 PM

I'm actually fine with cutting Dolor as it's true he doesn't really stand out that much from the throngs of psychotic Bhaal cultists in Act 3.

But I strongly vote in favor of keeping Cazador Szarr and Enver Gortash.

Regarding Cazador Szarr, ultimately he's a mirror to Astarion. The heinous standard isn't an issue because Ascended Astarion doesn't do anything to surpass Cazador in evil, but a reason I believe Cazador still counts is that ultimately Astarion's arc, and Cazazdor's own, is about choosing to be a monster or not for the sake of power and security. Cazador decided to become a sadistic beast even worse than his own master and abuse his own spawn worse than he ever was, while his regret is a subconscious thing that's more an Easter Egg (as it's almost impossible to obtain). It's not even conscious to him, and he makes it clear to Astarion that he chooses to be as big a bastard as possible because he enjoys being a monster while Astarion himself can break the chain.

Gortash, I think is an easy keeper. While he says he liked the Dark Urge, that's extremely shallow. You can enjoy someone's company without truly caring about them, as Gortash proves because despite being working partners, Gortash had no issues whatsoever with the Dark Urge being betrayed and possibly killed and is fine manipulating or even killing Durge if it suits his plan without a lick of remorse. Gortash is a consummate sociopath who only cares about himself.

Edited by OccasionalExister on Jun 20th 2024 at 6:00:41 AM

PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#14903: Jun 20th 2024 at 6:07:39 PM

Talking this over on the side I'm not sure about Cazador but the other two I think can stay. Gortash "likes" the Dark Urge akin to a villain who finds someone else interesting. He doesn't mind when Orin the Red betrays and seemingly kills the Urge and he'll happily manipulate it. I don't think he's capable of a true friendship. Dolor is said to be bad even by the standards of the cult and I think makes it for his level.

Cazador though... I know his path emphasizes choice but we cut Ellen despite her becoming a remorseless psychopath because it's only after she's convinced no one will ever love her that she turns to pure evil and that quote makes it hard for me to think there isn't some lingering melancholy within him.

Edit: OE knows this one better than I, Imma defer here!

Edit upon edit: Cazador I think I'll have to stick with an abstain, unconscious or not I see this one both ways.

Edited by PassingThrough on Jun 20th 2024 at 9:09:49 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#14904: Jun 20th 2024 at 6:59:00 PM

I'm fine with cutting Dolor, but keeping the other two.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#14905: Jun 20th 2024 at 7:44:14 PM

I think the Baldur's Gate III candidates are fine. Dolor, not so much, especially if the heinous standard is this high.

All right, since I'm gonna be talking about Bad Boys: Ride or Die tomorrow, lemme get this out the way now.

Fouchet may need to go. So I rewatched some of the earlier films in the franchise, and at this point (especially with the fourth movie), I don't think Fouchet can compete with the heinous standard. He kills two of his goons early on in the film—one to distract the cops, one (Eddie Dominguez, an ex-cop) because he stole a brick of heroin for himself and became a liability. He kills Max, has one of his minions murder her boss, and tries to have Julie killed multiple times for being a witness; he later kidnaps her. Tries to kill the protagonists Marcus and Mike. Murders his chemist and the man who sold him the ventilation plans of the police station they robbed after they are no longer useful. He and his goons kill a taxi cab driver and some hotel worker in shootouts. And Fouchet murders the client he was going to sell his drugs to when the protagonists ruin his deal.

So that's...what, like nine murders? Plus kidnapping and trying to sell drugs. And five of those murders were his own employees or criminals who helped him with his schemes. The only thing that really pushes Fouchet into CM territory is what he does to Francine, an officer in the narcotics division. Basically Fouchet and Eddie (whom Francine was dating) took lewd/naked pictures of her and threatened to post them all on the bulletin board of Francine's child's school if she didn’t help them with their plans.

For the sake of scale, Johnny Tapia tried to flood Miami with ecstasy, to a point where we see an extensive scene of people inside a club trading/selling ecstasy like it's candy, one of whom overdoses. He also murders one of his own men, tries to have the protagonists killed, had his goons hack one of his business partners up in his mother's kitchen, kidnaps Marcus' sister Sydney (who is also an undercover DEA agent), and threatened to kill a Russian club owner's innocent wife and child if he didn't agree to work for him. Also, his method of smuggling ecstasy and money was inside of coffins and actual corpses.

Isabel and Armando Aretas both staged a breakout that left a couple people dead, including a prison guard. Then they conspired together to murder multiple police informants and officials who helped dismantle the Aretas Cartel; one of those people was Captain Howard. Armando also shot Mike multiple times and nearly killed him, so we can add attempted patricide to his list of crimes as well.

And then there's James McGrath, who is later revealed to be the Greater-Scope Villain for the whole series. Shortly after the first movie ended, McGrath had side characters Detectives Ruiz and Sanchez killed in a "car accident." He helped supply Johnny Tapia with his drugs, and also at the very last minute, added Captain Howard to the Aretas' hit list and had him assassinated. In the movie itself, he kills a money launderer(?) and his bodyguard, then stages a murder-suicide by killing the woman he was having an affair with. Later he has informant Fletcher killed, tries to have Armando killed (twice), kills a few US Marshals, and puts a hit out on Armando, Marcus, and Mike. When that doesn't work, he kidnaps Mike's newly-wedded wife, Christine, and Captain Howard's granddaughter, Callie, and also tries to kidnap/kill Marcus' family too.

That's not even getting into some of the other minor villains in the franchise—namely Blondie Dread, the leader of a bunch of Haitian "pirates" who tried to jack a shipment of cash from Sydney (and also tried to kill her) and caused a beautiful and exquisite—uh, um...horrific pile-up on a busy highway that left dozens of civilians and police officers injured, if not dead.

So I honestly don't know at this point if Fouchet can still count. If it was just the first two movies, sure. The third movie pushed it. But now? I don't think he stands out enough for CM material. Unless the blackmail against Francine is enough to keep him.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#14907: Jun 20th 2024 at 8:16:56 PM

I'm really not well-versed in Baldur's Gate, only just recently started playing III, but I think I'll lean keep on all of them, tbh. Dolor sounds nasty even by the Bhaalists' standards and while Cazador has some depth I think he's ultimately a willing sadist. But take my thoughts with a grain of salt lol.

Cut Fouchet, though. Good breakdown of it, Tyk!

Edited by Ravok on Jun 20th 2024 at 8:17:27 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14908: Jun 21st 2024 at 1:17:16 AM

Yeah, I think Fouchet can go.

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#14909: Jun 21st 2024 at 2:09:57 AM

Welp, I don't think I ever got a candidate cut before, so this is a first time for me.

Anyway, the candidate I'd like to talk about today is one from The Twilight Zone (1959). To be more precise, Ramos Clemente from the episode The Mirror. Here's his entry:


  • "The Mirror": Ramos Clemente is a peasant turned general turned revolutionary who overthrows the tyrannical General de Cruz. When warning signs arise in Clemente's unhinged demand that de Cruz be executed via being stripped, slathered in honey, and consumed by ants, Clemente becomes enamored with the former dictator's supposedly Magic Mirror. Believing his friends plot against him upon seeing their images in the glass, Clemente murders them and begins ordering the executions of thousands of prisoners around the clock, becoming a more loathed tyrant than de Cruz himself.

Now, in terms of heinousness Ramos is fine and for the longest time I thought he kept, but looking back at the episode, moral agency concerns me. As the EP itself states, Ramos becomes paranoid and starts believing his friends are plotting against him, seeing their reflections in the mirror as they attempt to kill him, and the episode overall seems to imply the mirror isn't actually magic but it's just Ramos hallucinating (this especially seems supported by the last of his friends saying he didn't want to betray him, and says so while he's dying from a gunshot by Ramos himself; like, why would he lie when he was done for anyway?). Something the entry doesn't mention is also that Ramos becomes so paranoid that he ends up shooting himself after looking at into the mirror, which only enforces the fact that Ramos is not mentally sane, and thus I heavily doubt he has enough moral agency to count when his worst actions are done under his insane paranoia.

Edited by CapitanoNox on Jun 21st 2024 at 11:22:46 AM

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
#14910: Jun 21st 2024 at 2:18:15 AM

Ramos' EP

Never seen an episode of the Twilight Zone myself tho, not sure

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#14911: Jun 21st 2024 at 2:20:20 AM

Thanks, couldn't find the EP myself.

Thermal7 —- from —- Since: Oct, 2018
—-
#14912: Jun 21st 2024 at 2:51:44 AM

Proposing a minor edit to Nicole Horne's entry.

Original:

  • Nicole Horne is the ice-cold CEO of Aesir Corporation, using her resources and connections to perpetuate her atrocities. A former member of the Inner Circle who headed up Project Valhalla, Horne oversaw the creation of Valkyr, using innocent people as test subjects and driving them insane, notably siccing three of the drugged up victims onto the Payne household to murder Michelle Payne and her infant daughter after Michelle accidentally learned of the project—later mocking Max over their deaths and forcing him to relive their murders simply for cruelty. Continuing to experiment on tortured captives with Valkyr years after, Horne begins marketing Valkyr into the drug community of New York, using Angelo Punchinello as a figurehead to spread Valkyr far and wide, uncaring of the thousands of lives it claimed. Horne used Punchinello to carry out a variety of assassinations and crimes in her name, murdering the man when she lost use of him and later enacting "Operation Dead Eyes" to cover her tracks, entailing the wholesale slaughter of each and every one of her former partners, employees, and test subjects in Project Valhalla, as well as the entirety of the Inner Circle.

Tweaks:

  • Nicole Horne is the ice-cold CEO of Aesir Corporation, using her resources and connections to perpetuate her atrocities. A former member of the Inner Circle who headed Project Valhalla, Horne oversaw the creation of Valkyr, using innocent people as test subjects and driving them insane, notably siccing three of the drugged up victims onto the Payne household to murder Michelle Payne and her infant daughter after Michelle accidentally learned of the project—later mocking Max over their deaths simply for cruelty. Continuing to experiment on tortured captives with Valkyr years after, Horne begins marketing Valkyr to the drug community of New York, using Angelo Punchinello as a figurehead to spread Valkyr far and wide, uncaring of the thousands of lives it claimed. Horne used Punchinello to carry out a variety of assassinations and crimes in her name, murdering the man when she lost use of him and drugging Max with a fatal dose of Valkyr, forcing him to relive his family's deaths in the process. Later she enacts "Operation Dead Eyes" to cover her tracks, entailing the wholesale slaughter of each and every one of her former partners, employees, and test subjects in Project Valhalla, as well as the entirety of the Inner Circle.

The changes are mostly cosmetic (few new potholes, grammatical fixes and stuff), but the most important one is meant to add a bit of clarity. I've moved the "relive Max's family's deaths" part to the end and added "drugging Max with Valkyr" to explain exactly how she did it. What do you think?

—-
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14913: Jun 21st 2024 at 3:06:51 AM

I'd keep all three baldur gate 3 villains

Ramos seems fine to me. I think the mirror not being magic is the point. He's such a paranoid psychopahh he's willing to murder anyone if they even are even possibly a threat to him. And considering he was already a dictator before Sanity Slippage don't view it as mitigating.

Edited by miraculous on Jun 21st 2024 at 3:08:00 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#14914: Jun 21st 2024 at 3:24:57 AM

He wasn't really a dictator before tho. He was the leader of the rebellion against a dictator, and became tyrannical as his paranoia got worse (although admittedly he was terrifying quick to kill his first friend, and he did already show some signs of being cruel with the way he wanted to execute the former dictator).

Edited by CapitanoNox on Jun 21st 2024 at 12:26:40 PM

AmateurStorytime Just a starting content creator from Home Since: Mar, 2024
Just a starting content creator
#14915: Jun 21st 2024 at 3:38:15 AM

Paranoia only takes you so far. The important part is how you respond to it. Did Ramos ever think to go into hiding or run for the hills when he suspected betrayal? No, his immediate response is to kill whoever he thinks is a traitor without even trying to look for another solution. Keep him.

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Iceaura39 from Where joy and happiness go to cry (Petty Master) Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
#14916: Jun 21st 2024 at 3:58:25 AM

With regard to Cazador specifically, I, like everyone else, recognise he's heinous enough, but I do still have my doubts on him. Astarion's arc is all about the cycle of abuse, so glossing over what Cazador has gone through doesn't feel right to me. Even if it's not focused on, the fact that it happened and is why he's as bad as he is is still thematically significant.

In case it wasn't clear, my vote is to cut Cazador. Maybe cut Dolor, too, but I'm not quite as sure. Gortash should be fine, though.

Edited by Iceaura39 on Jun 21st 2024 at 5:52:06 PM

It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.
LarryMullen Since: May, 2015
#14917: Jun 21st 2024 at 4:30:03 AM

I also say Keep Clemente. He's clearly paranoid from the beginning so I think he would have eventually executed the men, mirror or no mirror.

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#14918: Jun 21st 2024 at 4:48:03 AM

I guess what mostly made me doubt over him was the fact he outright hallucinates them attempting to kill him.

AmateurStorytime Just a starting content creator from Home Since: Mar, 2024
Just a starting content creator
#14919: Jun 21st 2024 at 5:11:30 AM

I just rewatched the episode, and towards the end, when the priest tries reasoning with Clemente, Clemente angrilly dares the people to start a revolution and overthrow him just like he did to General de Cruz. This means he knows he's the villain and doesn't care, which should squash any moral agency concerns.

"I have enemies, Father. I have enemies. And as long as I have enemies, the executions will continue. They'll continue twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. And if that disturbs the people, well, then, if that's... Then let them do something about it! Let them go in the caves. Let them starve for a year! Let them raise an army like I did! I don't care what they do!"

Edited by AmateurStorytime on Jun 21st 2024 at 5:26:27 AM

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Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#14920: Jun 21st 2024 at 6:33:44 AM

Keep Ramos. I also don't think we treat hallucinations as compromising unless the person cannot tell fantasy from reality at every point.

I'm honestly going to abstain on Cazador and Gortash, I could go either way

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Dude-of-Wealth-And-Taste (Apprentice) Relationship Status: Become a part of me!
#14921: Jun 21st 2024 at 7:30:12 AM

Remembered watching Clemente's episode and never felt he was too insane. Keep personally.

Abstain on the Baldur's Gate candidates but cut Fouchet.

Till all are one.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14922: Jun 21st 2024 at 7:50:29 AM

So who is a consensus cut? Does that Frieza have enough votes?

We all good on the Rawhead Rex rewrite?

StrainsOfHorror Since: May, 2024
#14923: Jun 21st 2024 at 9:11:24 AM

What's the minimum number of votes required for a rewrite?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#14925: Jun 21st 2024 at 9:44:54 AM

[up][up][up]Fouchet seems definitely a solid cut. By the way, I am also in favor of cutting, he has always been a weak CM and it is not surprising that he was easily eclipsed. Ramos remains.


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