TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Complete Monster Cleanup

Go To

Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#14576: Jun 12th 2024 at 4:10:10 PM

Cut Rachel and Patrick

It's Spooky Month!
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#14578: Jun 12th 2024 at 4:20:45 PM

I'm more or less finishing watching the movie No One Gets Out Alive and I firmly vouch that Becker easily matters. He sacrificed at least 16 girls (not counting the attempt with the main character Amber), although here, based on the number of ghosts that Amber saw when Becker was carrying her, there are many more of them. Well, all other crimes are also present. The only slight inaccuracy is that he sacrificed the two Romanian girls rather than throwing one of them away, but honestly it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, he still killed her horribly. So Becker definitely matters.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Jun 12th 2024 at 4:25:02 AM

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
#14579: Jun 12th 2024 at 4:53:15 PM

[tdown] Rachel and Patrick.

Its funny that I have two irl cousins with those names ...

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14580: Jun 12th 2024 at 5:20:58 PM

The original writeup:

  • Complete Monster: Becker partook in his family ritual of sacrificing women to the Aztec goddess, Ītzpāpālōtl. When he and his brother, Red, killed their father, Becker continued the sacrifices upon discovering that they rejuvenated his health, forcing Red to lure women to their boarding house for Becker to feed Ītzpāpālōtl, already killing many women as evidence with the amount ghosts trapped in their house. Preparing to make heroine Ambar his latest offering to Ītzpāpālōtl, Becker kills two Romanian women still under his captivity and beats Ambar's uncle to death before attempting to strangle Ambar to death.

Edited by ACW on Jun 12th 2024 at 8:30:09 AM

PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#14581: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:22:25 AM

Warning! Warning! Incoming controversy! After reviewing passages I've got something spicy!

Cut to suggest from Harry Potter:

  • Bellatrix Lestrange is a psychopathic Death Eater who seems to be motivated primarily by her desire to inflict as much pain on as many people as possible in the name of Voldemort's cause. Bellatrix, gleeful cruelty incarnate, has a special fondness for torturing people with the Cruciatus curse, and tortured Neville Longbottom's parents to the point where they exist in near-comas, and will never recognize their own son again; she is also an accomplished arsonist, burning down multiple residences basically just for the sake of it. Bellatrix is the cause of death for half of her non-Death-Eater family members, including her cousin Sirius Black and her niece Nymphadora Tonks, as well as Dobby, and delights in the torment these deaths cause.

She used to be on the NA list but the issue I take, even indicated from the above entry, is genuine care for Voldy...

  • She never denounced him, even in public and proudly went to Azkaban for decades waiting for his return;
  • When Snape at one point indicates the Dark Lord is keeping secrets from her, she's noted to get "flustered" in response and roars that she's his most loyal servant;
  • Most damningly, after Voldemort is dazed from an attack he performs on Harry Potter, she rushes to help him and is mentioned to look worried when he refuses her aid out of pride;

This isn't even getting into the fact she had a kid with him and values his praise above all, nothing refutes the above. She's a vicious sadist and bigot gunning for genocide and absolutely thinks Voldemort can see her dream through but two things can be true at once: she's also got a pattern indicating some genuine care for her master, even if the books hammer in our head he himself is incapable of seeing people beyond a means to an end, the same isn't true of her and I feel like the old arguments to keep her ring much like those used to have kept Johan for so long, that she "seems to" only care for her boss as the embodiment of her prejudice but as has been said before, CM is never the default, nothing goes against the little bits of nuance indicating she actually loves her master and is a horrid, bigoted sadist. After looking into this one I think she's worth another look and personally can't advocate for keeping her, be it the book or film version.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#14582: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:27:56 AM

I am saying keep Beatrix. She loves the idea of him and not the man himself.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 13th 2024 at 8:38:43 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#14583: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:29:27 AM

I would support a removal for Bellatrix. The whole "she doesn't love Voldemort, but what Voldemort represents" thing always struck me as very shaky logic that didn't have any concrete evidence. Like granted it's a *possible* interpretation, but there's nothing to directly support or oppose that claim either way. Something like this would need either direct verbal confirmation from characters or other signs that Bellatrix doesn't actually care about Voldy.

[tup] to cutting Bellatrix

Edited by Snowy66 on Jun 13th 2024 at 6:29:44 AM

PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#14584: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:30:42 AM

I kinda take umbrage with being told off with a "I know the series well"... I do too Bull and I've given instances where she shows care and concern for him which aren't refuted and we can't just take the assumption it's just about her racism. I can provide quote and passages, can you do the same indicating the opposite? I'd like to keep this a healthy debate and tbh this feels dismissive.

YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#14585: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:31:06 AM

yeah. Personally the line between Fanaticism and geuine care and loyalty can be a hard line to decipher. Reminds me of why we cut Shaipouf from Hunter X Hunter for him going to much lengths for his master for it be just an obsession who ironically was also compared to Bellatrix

Honestly what seals it for me is her going to Askban and never denying Voldemort when so many other followers of Voldy made deals or pleaded that they were bewitched.

that is too much for a CM

I am in favor of cutting the book and the film version of Bellatrix in light of this argument

Edited by YorkobeShounen on Jun 13th 2024 at 6:31:50 AM

Evanpotter09 Since: Sep, 2023 Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
Thermal7 —- from —- Since: Oct, 2018
—-
#14587: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:35:06 AM

My interpretation is, Bellatrix's supposed love for Voldemort is supposed to be rapid fanaticism than heartfelt affection. I think it's meant to further her evilness, not mitigate it. Hell, she's such a batshit insane sadist that even if there was any affection, it's kinda moot.

So I say keep.

PS. Are there any substantial differences between book and movie versions? Honestly, I didn't read books, so those moments of affection may be book-exclusive. In that case, it would probably make sense to move Bella over to the movies-only section.

Edited by Thermal7 on Jun 13th 2024 at 6:37:09 AM

—-
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#14588: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:35:24 AM

Passing Through: I was not trying to be dismissive, but I was just pointing out that I do to, it was just poorly thought out. I never assumed you didn't, and I don't appreciate being accused of saying you didn't. I want this conversation to be civil, so I removed that part.

To offer some counter arguments to the moments brought up. The flustered part feels less like her being more annoyed at Snape than caring about Voldemort as she had been on edge the whole meeting because she didn't want to be there and was forced to by her sister, her never denouncing him is not a hint that she loved him anymore than any other Death eater, and the last point is literally in the middle of a battle, and she is worried that you know Harry Potter is about to beat them. Also, I am reluctant to say the play is canon when it contradicts a lot of the books.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 13th 2024 at 8:40:40 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#14589: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:40:12 AM

I have a hard time personally believing a CM is willing to suffer a horrible fate in Azkaban and refused to ever denounce Voldemort or try to get out of punishment like so many other followers did.

That's just me though

PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#14590: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:41:33 AM

I don't understand why we're saying assuming concern she isn't being made privy to the secrets of a man she spent decades in prison for is just annoyance with Snape and no further depth or why blatant concern for her master is about Harry defeating her forces. If you disagree that's fine but I'm hard pressed to see why we're ascribing her just flatly being interested in the benefit of him surviving or being close to her... there isn't enough to just presume it must be wholly selfish.

The play was also written by the author and meant to be a continuation... we cut Hidan despite continuation issues. I'm not putting you on blast but for the sake of communication information I do need to put this for the thread so we can see why the cut side isn't sold.

Edited by PassingThrough on Jun 13th 2024 at 9:43:25 AM

Thermal7 —- from —- Since: Oct, 2018
—-
#14591: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:41:46 AM

This "Bella's love for Voldy" debate seems to at least partially rely on Alternative Character Interpretation, which doesn't disquality from being a CM as far as I'm aware.

Edited by Thermal7 on Jun 13th 2024 at 6:44:32 AM

—-
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#14592: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:43:23 AM

I would like to point out that there is no reason she would denounce Voldemort. Like she was never offered freedom if she did and we have no reason to believe she was. Snape and that other former death eater that became a headmaster did so voluntarily.

[up][up]I disagree. She was already snappy and flustered through out. Like Snape eggs her on several times and her reaction to even the littlest thing is exactly the same as that. My point is that I have a different read then you did.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 13th 2024 at 8:45:52 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#14593: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:44:54 AM

She could have pleaded being under the imperious curse like so many other Death Eaters did.

PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#14594: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:46:10 AM

I was not defensive at all... I found your first post dismissive and requested a fuller debate. That's all I've said, can you please discuss the candidate without more accusations Bull?

Edit: Troper edited their post.

Re: ACI, I think assuming she doesn't care would be the Alternative Character Interpretation, which is supported by the points I've given.

Edited by PassingThrough on Jun 13th 2024 at 9:47:26 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#14595: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:46:42 AM

The thing is we are never told she went through the imperious curse and assuming that she did is odd.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 13th 2024 at 8:49:59 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#14596: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:46:57 AM

Unlike Voldemort who has been repeatedly emphasised is literally incapable of feeling love, so that his apparent care for Nagini and Bellatrix can't possibly be that. Bellatrix has not been given any such criteria, so there's nothing to directly indicate her care for Voldemort isn't genuine.

Thermal7 —- from —- Since: Oct, 2018
—-
#14597: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:47:21 AM

@Yorkobe Shounen: Maybe she was just being a Card-Carrying Villain and a sadist, that's why she didn't bother pretending to be under Imperius.

Edited by Thermal7 on Jun 13th 2024 at 6:47:39 AM

—-
PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#14598: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:51:48 AM

Yeah... I'm pretty strongly standing by my stance here, "maybe", "probably", "seems to", are the reactions I'm finding to the points being given against her and this is cementing my feeling she's at the very least too ambiguous to be kept on the list. I've largely given my points so I'm gonna bow out but I do wanna bring up this is lining up with the exact problem I had with her: there's ambiguity to her relationship with Voldy (at the very least) and it comes across to me as a stretch and taking CM as the default, that's my observation.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#14599: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:52:56 AM

I made my points, but you guys bring up good points. So, I am just going to abstain and step away.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 13th 2024 at 9:19:31 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Thermal7 —- from —- Since: Oct, 2018
—-
#14600: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:54:35 AM

I guess that makes sense. But the movies don't seem to have as much ambiguity, so it would probably be logical to at least keep the movie version of Bellatrix.

—-

Total posts: 18,821
Top