Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
@ACW (or anyone else who maintains CM entries): Can you please replace the Nuke 'Em pothole in Cold War (2005) (Barinsky orders Sonya's death and stages the reactor meltdown) with Going Critical? The Nuke 'Em is already used once in the entry.
- Barinsky's last spiteful act is to try and take millions of Soviet citizens with him by detonating a nuke in the middle of Moscow.
I've got a three-for-one:
X-Men: The Animated Series: Now that Sinister is joining the ranks, I'd like to discuss a certain Graydon Creed Sr. So Sabretooth is a real piece of work, but Omega Red outdoes him in almost every regard. Sabretooth threatens to kill a whole village? Omega Red literally tries to unleash a nuclear holocaust. With the exception of his treatment of Graydon Creed Jr (especially attempting to murder him), Sabretooth just flat-out fails to compare to Red. Cut.
Professor Goedelitz is loathsome, but consider this:
-He's a subordinate of The Baby, who leads the organization that orchestrates the whole Turkish Quarter arson, and who does not qualify because of at least some humanizing traits.
-He is one of several people involved in the plot, with his associate Petr Capek trouncing him. Not only does Capek help plot the fire, but he also is responsible for killing leaders in the Turkish community after the arson, even driving survivors out of the neighborhood. Milan himself describes how his roommates have all lost someone to Capek's machinations for being immigrants. Capek ALSO assists in the Red Rose Mansion experiments and is complicit in Bonapart's mass murder plot. And even after all of that, he continues the experiments, as shown with Milan's son and his classmates, whom he brainwashes into becoming violent and ultimately suicidal. Not only does Capek have dirtier hands, but he too fails because he is heavily implied to be remorseful, as execrable as he is.
-Johan also has what is more than likely a higher confirmed (and attempted) body count, between murdering people, driving others to do so on his behalf (or into suicide), and the Ruhenheim massacre, to say nothing of his initial plan to use Schuwald's influence to cause global chaos.
Overall, Goedelitz feels like a cog in one evil machine. Reading the manga, he really more explains The Baby's plot rather than actually initiating it. Given the fact that the last three characters are not only involved in the same (or similar) acts but also have greater responsibility or a whole bunch of other atrocities in addition, I feel Goedelitz has to go, ESPECIALLY now that Johan's gone. Cut.
Drive (2011)
It's been a while since I watched Drive, but I can't really say Chris Cook stood out much. The guy is a slimeball, but his biggest atrocity overlaps with Nino, which is the pawnshop robbery and subsequent attempt to wipe the slate clean with those involved. He doesn't care about Blanche? Nino and Bernie literally want to kill everyone involved to cover up the crime. He threatens a child? Bernie slashes the wrist of a man who can't walk properly and brutally stabs an injured (but deserving) Cook to death. He threatens to hurt Standard's family? Nino starts a robbery out of personal dislike (not unwarranted, though) for the Jersey mob that results in several deaths. Like with Goedelitz, Cook is a Hate Sink, Slimeball, More Despicable Minion, but Complete Monster? That's a tough sell, imo. Cut.
Edited by SarenApologist on May 29th 2024 at 7:56:02 AM
Here's my home address, social media, and bank account!I asked about Sabretooth before here
. The consensus then seemed to be that he accomplished enough for such a low resource villain to count fine, especially when taken with his collaboration in Magneto and Apocalypse's doomsday plots.
Personally, I'm a little unsure on that reasoning, buuut he'll have another big bump to his rapsheet in a month by helping out Sinister's mass murder plan in the tie-in prequel comic. As I said in the proposal thread, Geode will be handling that, while I was going to do a rewrite to emphasize the above points.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 29th 2024 at 9:34:22 AM
So I was browsing the tropes page for Bram Stoker's Dracula (the 1992 film) and I saw that the brides are listed and... I don't see it. They may lack Dracula's redeeming qualities, but everything that they're guilty of Dracula is also guilty of. They feed on a baby? Okay, but Dracula was literally the one who gave them the baby so he's also guilty of killing children. Do they torture and drain Jonathan? Sure, but Dracula is the one that knowingly left Jonathan in their mercy while knowing what was going to happen to him. And while they may have sexually assaulted Jonathan, Dracula raped Lucy. Pretty much everything the brides have done, Dracula is just as guilty of if not more (except for murdering horses, I guess), especially since he is enabling their crimes. And while the brides murdered the horses out of spite, Dracula is just as petty, since he murdered Lucy when Mina went to marry Jonathan. Also, Dracula has a much higher body count than the brides. We don't see the brides killing anyone besides the horses, but we do see Dracula murder innocent sailors, Lucy, and Renfield. The crimes of the brides aren't unique. I mean, considering Lucy tries to kill a child as well, vampires feeding on children is treated as standard in the film since Lucy, the brides, and Dracula all engage in it.
If the brides aren't cut, that's fine, but personally I feel like Dracula has way too many Kick the Dog moments for the brides to really stand out or be especially heinous.
Hmm...fair enough. I suppose if X-Men 97 has him show up again they might lengthen his rap sheet. Couldn't one argue that Red's attempt to unleash a nuclear holocaust all by himself trounces Creed's worst acts?
Edited by SarenApologist on May 29th 2024 at 6:43:55 AM
Here's my home address, social media, and bank account!A three-candidate-in-one shot EP for good measure.
I can't comment on it, last time I watched that movie was in college film class back in 2009, memory's not serving well
Edited by RobertTYL on May 29th 2024 at 9:44:15 PM
I actually did read the EP and I'm still not convinced. Because sure, they eat a baby and keep Jonathan hostage... but Dracula gave them both the baby and Jonathan. So that's not a crime independent of Dracula. The only on-screen crimes they have that's independent of Dracula is them killing the horses and I'm not convinced that's enough. They only kill the baby because Dracula gave it to them to feed on. They only keep Jonathan hostage because Dracula let them keep him hostage.
x3 Almost definitely, though it should be noted that Omega Red always has way more resources in his appearances than Sabretooth ever does, and while Sabretooth still doesn't get up to as much he still has the incredibly petty act of trying to murder a whole village just to spite Wolverine.
That being said, it would be best to just wait for the tie-in to conclude before doing a more in-depth discussion on whether or not to cut. The last issue will be 6/26, so July 10th will be discussion day.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 29th 2024 at 9:53:17 AM
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Quoth the EP:
- "Notably, they've got a pretty clear pattern of killing or torturing people and eat a freaking baby onscreen..."
Quoth your post:
- "Also, Dracula has a much higher body count than the brides. We don't see the brides killing anyone besides the horses, but we do see Dracula murder innocent sailors, Lucy, and Renfield."
Sorry, conflicting information here, anyone familiar with the work want to weigh in?
Edited by RobertTYL on May 29th 2024 at 9:54:10 PM
Alright, fair point. Probably should have held off on Sabretooth until after this comic ended (I didn't even know it was ongoing). Any thoughts on Goedelitz or Cook?
Edited by SarenApologist on May 29th 2024 at 6:56:32 AM
Here's my home address, social media, and bank account!I can't comment on the Bride's as my only experience with the film in recent years is reading a fanfic that crossed them over with Kim Possible and they had redeeming qualities there.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadHere's their first appearance for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Ta2KtjiNA&ab_channel=NOWSCARING
There's actually no indication that there's a 'pattern' where they've tortured and killed others like they killed Jonathan. We only see them do it with Jonathan, so I do think the EP was not completely accurate.
Also, I did misspeak, since the brides do still kill a baby as well as the horses.
Edited by PeterVanHelsing on May 29th 2024 at 7:07:39 AM
Don't know enough about Monster to comment (watched it, but only paid attention half the time
). For everyone else's reference, here's Goedelitz's EP
.
Cook
's EPs says he also drugs women to rape them, which sounds unique.
- Sabretooth's villainy is in the process of getting expanded in the current prequel comic.
- Goedelitz is one of the top masterminds of the fire and if anything, the Baby is subordinate to him, not the other way around. Capek is nasty but it doesn't negate that Goedelitz is the one we see explaining the plan, he espouses the Nazi rhetoric driving the group, and even killing a poor innocent housemaid just to silence her. He's a one-shot minor villain where Capek and Johan are longer-running baddies with more time to be evil.
- Chris Cook is plenty nasty and the cut proposal openly admitting they haven't seen the film in awhile basically backs that up. Him threatening a child is unique in the film and the cut proposal completely leaves out that he's manipulating drugged-up women into being his strippers or robbers, and kills them when they run out of usefulness.
- Dracula being the Big Bad doesn't negate that the Brides are sadistic Dragons, of which we have plenty listed. "The Big Bad does awful stuff so his vile Dragons can't count" has never held up as a legitimate reason to not qualify someone, especially when said "someone" in this case are a trio of baby eaters and repeated rapists who, yes, the film establishes with Jonathan and the baby that it is regular routine for them.
Saying keep to all of these.
Edited by Ravok on May 29th 2024 at 7:12:02 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I suppose keep all those candidates.
We were getting general consensus to cut Lord Kelnor, but there was also evidence to point to cutting his Master as well for agency reasons. Are we moving toward cutting both now?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

Alright, since my attempts at getting Lord Kelnor to keep didn't pan out as expected... No harm, no foul, not going to go against the rest of the fora (Come think about it — in the book's Golden Ending, you didn't kill Lord Kelnor after slaying the Hell Demon because the titular house is about to collapse from fire; Kelnor dies because he voluntarily stays beside the slain Demon, his Master. I suppose this implies some weird, fanatical loyalty that counts as mitigating factors, so the "cut" voters does have a point)
I also brought up the Hell Demon having Always Chaotic Evil concerns, might as well get this over with before hitting the sack. Anyway, YMMV.House Of Hell...
You might notice that approx. 70% of the writeup is dedicated to listing Kelnor's stuff (save for the brief mention of "making pacts with a powerful demon"... which is why for the longest time, I'm under the impression that Lord Kelnor is the sole CM of the book, at least until Lore linked the old EP
So anyways....
The Fighting Fantasy franchise is chock full of fanatical supporters of supernatural entities and eldritch forces; in each and every instance, the supporter in question is a CM, but the eldritch deity they're supporting isn't. Case(s) in point
Let's get back to House of Hell for a moment. Lord Kelnor is a human aristocrat who made a deal with a Hell Demon for immortality, they ran a Human Sacrifice cult for over a century where for most of the story, the Hell Demon assumes the form of Lord Kelnor's butler, Franklins.
Now, the old EP
does briefly state the Hell Demon can think, under the reasoning that it assumes the role of Kelnor's aide. As well as statements like:
That is untrue - within the FF continuity, the stories have branched into our world a few times, and there are several implications that the major, High Fantasy-themed adventures of these books takes place centuries ago... in fact, Hell Demons
(the same race the Master belongs to) is an individual species of their own, brushing them aside as "this isn't the same continuity, so there's zero competition"... sorry, it just doesn't work that way?
note
...need further proof? A later book, 2005's Eye of the Dragon features another Hell Demon, this time in a High Fantasy setting. This other HD, like the Master from House of Hell, assumes the disguise of an old man and needs a Kris dagger to kill. Plus I brought up the medieval-themed FF book Island of the Undead earlier, featuring a different demon called the Dire Specter that could've belonged to the same race as the Hell Demons, and was explicitly Made of Evil in it (the reason why I didn't propose him anyway).
This... is went overboard a little. But just cut them both.
Lord Kelnor for "loyalty towards his Master", the Master for "another Always Chaotic Evil Demon, no worse than the rest of his race"