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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

Rhino8888 from Spain Since: Mar, 2020
#14151: May 26th 2024 at 12:43:54 PM

[up] You're not alone, honestly I always felt listening to the song that, even taking it separated from the game it's based on, there wasn't that much evidence that he was responsible for the events in the video just because he appeared on a TV promoting the toys.

But people here have already argued against every argument I could have brought up, so whatever.

Edited by Rhino8888 on May 28th 2024 at 6:09:24 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14152: May 26th 2024 at 2:44:41 PM

BTW Sinister Sentient Sun is a thing. Both incarnations of Solaris we have can use it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14153: May 26th 2024 at 3:43:37 PM

Should All-Star Superman be potholed anywhere for Comic!Solaris?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14154: May 26th 2024 at 3:47:46 PM

No. That's an alternate continuty from DC one million which is post crisis. Superman you know dies at the end of all star.

A Verison of him also appeared in infinite frontier. But I haven't read that one.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14155: May 26th 2024 at 3:50:36 PM

Ah, so there's a possibility that Solaris could count and just hasn't gotten an EP?

Also, Superman DIES??

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#14156: May 26th 2024 at 3:56:22 PM

Yep, he does. Him slowly dying is entire plot of the All Star.

From Infinite Frontier we seem to only have Punchline and guy from Joker comic. Suprised how untapped that era is.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14157: May 26th 2024 at 4:00:18 PM

I Dunno. Don't they like reprogram him to be good or something in the comic. I though he only counts in the cartoon as they just kill him.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#14158: May 26th 2024 at 4:09:50 PM

The penultimate issue has Superman commenting he'll be rehabilitated by the 24th century.

Though I have been meaning to ask, how do we treat characters who get reprogrammed/have amnesia and become a good person? Like, back when Sabretooth was still up I recall it specifically stating it was talking about him pre-Inversion.

I know we have cases were the previous version is treated as a completely separate person, but how do we deal with cases where that's not the case and they're still clearly the same, just with a fresh start?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14159: May 26th 2024 at 4:13:44 PM

I thought we treat brainwashing/amnesia like that as a separate character. Since we don't list people with corrupted agency. We're not going to remove them for the reverse.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#14160: May 26th 2024 at 4:13:52 PM

Madder Red

Edited by ACW on May 26th 2024 at 7:13:58 AM

TurlesTheVegan Xykon from The Darkest Pit of the Underworld Since: Dec, 2023 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Xykon
#14161: May 26th 2024 at 4:16:10 PM

From my recollection characters that go through Heel–Face Brainwashing like the aforementioned Madder Red still count; it's not like they chose to turn good after all.

Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's just something you are.
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#14162: May 26th 2024 at 4:54:12 PM

Also, doesn't Smallville!Brainiac get reprogramed and become good, but we still count him because anytime he's operating on his own initiative he counts for CM? I haven't seen that show but I thought I read that somewhere.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 26th 2024 at 7:54:19 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#14164: May 26th 2024 at 7:13:52 PM

Also Darkrai.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#14165: May 26th 2024 at 7:15:03 PM

Got two possible minor tweaks to Zoran Lazarević?

  • Zoran Lazarević is a Serbian war criminal responsible for mass murder and torture across the globe, and is working to find Shambhala throughout the game. Invading a Nepalese city currently engulfed in a civil war, Lazarević begins tearing the city apart and killing anyone in his way while looking for clues to Shambhala's location. Lazarević introduces himself to Nathan Drake by killing one of his wounded friends, then trying to do the same to him. Pursued by Drake into the mountains of Nepal, Lazarević leads an attack on a defenseless village in an effort to kill him, murdering numerous innocents in the process. Shooting one of his own soldiers after Nate tried to use the man as a hostage, Lazarević takes Drake's love interests as hostages to force him to find a way into Shambhala, where Zoran plans to use its power to make him and his army invincible, then Take Over the World. When beaten, Lazarević tries to force Drake to kill him and embrace his merciless outlook on the world. Viewing leaders like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, and Pol Pot as "great men," Zoran Lazarević made his mark as the most evil villain Nathan Drake ever encountered.

Additions

  • Zoran Lazarević is a Serbian war criminal responsible for mass murder and torture across the globe, and is working to find Shambhala throughout the game. Invading a Nepalese city currently engulfed in a civil war, Lazarević begins tearing the city apart and killing anyone in his way while looking for clues to Shambhala's location. Lazarević introduces himself to Nathan Drake by killing one of his wounded friends, then trying to do the same to him. Pursued by Drake into the mountains of Nepal, Lazarević leads an attack on a defenseless village in an effort to kill him, murdering numerous innocents in the process.Kidnapping the elderly Karl Schafer during the slaughter, Lazarević has him put through various forms of abuse and leaves him to die. Shooting one of his own soldiers after Nate tried to use the man as a hostage, Lazarević takes Drake's love interests as hostages to force him to find a way into Shambhala, where Zoran plans to use its power to make him and his army invincible, then Take Over the World, fatally betraying his partner Harry Flynn for serving his purpose. When beaten, Lazarević tries to force Drake to kill him and embrace his merciless outlook on the world. Viewing leaders like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, and Pol Pot as "great men," Zoran Lazarević made his mark as the most evil villain Nathan Drake ever encountered.

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#14166: May 26th 2024 at 10:04:36 PM

I dig the additions, Wet!

Got a quick, easy cut proposal to make here. From Ghostwatch, which I've just seen for the first time:

  • Complete Monster: The malevolent spirit nicknamed "Mr. Pipes" is a vile entity, and the two people that make up the ghost were just as vile even before they became one:
    • Mother Seddons was a baby farmer in the Victorian era who would murder the children under her care by drowning. Even more than a century after her death, her legend was used to scare local children. Her violent ghost would continue to haunt the land she once inhabited, including possessing local pedophile Raymond Tunstall to abduct children and mutilate a pregnant dog. Seddons would later drive him to insanity and suicide, making him hang and electrocute himself, then allow his corpse to be eaten by cats. Seddons' influence would continue to be felt after she and Tunstall became the entity "Pipes", harming, threatening, and abducting the Early children. When the show Ghostwatch broadcasts the events, "Pipes" uses the connection as a giant séance to possess the host and wreak havoc on the viewers around the world.
    • Raymond Tunstall was a depraved individual even prior to his possession by Seddons. Described by his own parole officer as someone who "should never even have been let near a community", Tunstall was a violent pedophile who abused and molested many local minors. Hiding out in a relative's basement while on parole, Tunstall was influenced and later possessed by Seddons to abduct children and eventually take his own life. Returning as the entity "Pipes", Tunstall's pedophilic desires were carried over, leading to the frequent harm, possession, molestation, and eventual abduction of the Early family's eldest daughter Suzanne. Using Ghostwatch's broadcast of the events, "Pipes" goes on to influence more chaos, including reports of children acting possessed.

Original EP

Yeah, these two don't count at all, IMO.

  • They have no characterization, not a lick of it. No real dialogue, barely debatable if they're ever even onscreen, incredibly nebulous what they even are—the idea the EP and write-up present that "Mr. Pipes" is simply an amalgamation of two villains is a very, very heavy assumption that the film itself does not present as the final possibility.
  • All of their backstory is the definition of Offscreen Villainy. It's barely talked about besides one-off lines by stray characters, Raymond's entire rapsheet is literally a character, over a phone, saying this:
    "He had several convictions for molestation, aggravated abuse, abduction of minors. He should never have been let anywhere near any community. He was a very disturbed man, in my opinion."
    • Raymond, additionally, is never said to have been evil before he was possessed, the implication is that the possession and resulting insanity is what drove him to it.
  • There's, again, a lot of reaching going on in the EP that are not at all presented in the movie as fact, to such a point that we have no idea if "Mr. Pipes" is either of them—let alone what the EP is assuming, both. The characters flatout ponder just as easily if the villainy terrorizing the family is something "from way back, maybe even prehistory" and not primarily related to the two baddies listed, describing Raymond and Seddons as "onion layers" of what the actual evil is: further confirmed by the short story sequel to be an Eldritch Abomination who uses souls of others as parts of a whole. The film is deliberately, disqualifyingly ambiguous as to what the exact nature of "Mr. Pipes" and its "hosts" are.

Cut pretty posthaste, IMO.

Edited by Ravok on May 26th 2024 at 11:38:01 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#14168: May 26th 2024 at 10:11:12 PM

Snip. Zoran change seems fine.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#14169: May 26th 2024 at 10:32:28 PM

The tie-in story "10-31" only further muddies the waters with characters openly confused as to what Raymond and Seddons have to do with "Pipes", and the ending implies Pipes is made of millions of evil beings existing in one entity.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#14171: May 26th 2024 at 10:57:39 PM

Cut the ghost watch duo

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#14172: May 26th 2024 at 11:29:01 PM

Also on Comics' Greatest World for Pallbearer's entry the work isn't potholed, showing Comic Book/Motorhead instead of Motorhead

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#14173: May 26th 2024 at 11:30:50 PM

If the actual entity of Pipes had more to it, I'd be cool with just listing it, because between the film and short story it's heavily, heavily implied that "Mr. Pipes" is something akin to the Overlook Hotel, regularly subsuming people's souls into itself to wear as "masks". Buuuut the entity has got very little concrete character to alleviate the mystery, and its dialogue basically amounts to repeating a nursery rhyme and at one point, when questioned "who are you?", it mumbles "Jesus Christ.", then when asked "Are you joking?" it replies "Haha, very funny."

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#14174: May 27th 2024 at 3:00:39 AM

Keep Henry and Ludwig

Cut Buck, Caesar, Seddons and Turnstall


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