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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

AbsoluteRainbow Since: Jul, 2023
#12501: Feb 18th 2024 at 9:47:54 AM

(#12498 page 500)

That's pretty good. Generic enslaving relying on Fridge Horror isn't it.

Cut DOR-15.

Edited by AbsoluteRainbow on Feb 19th 2024 at 12:48:16 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#12502: Feb 18th 2024 at 9:52:48 AM

Oh she is not listed, this is just making a rewrite to the explanation why she isn't listed. It's more specific and makes a better illustration why she hasn't been approved.

CrimsonAce Since: Oct, 2016
#12504: Feb 18th 2024 at 2:38:02 PM

I put a Complete Monster entry in a YMMV page I created for a fanfic a few months ago, and I forgot to submit it for approval on the other thread.

Boscha Barbtalone/Kamen Rider Red-Pan is a contestant in the DGP who hates Luz with a burning passion, and will do anything to get her out of the way so she can have Amity all to herself. Even before Amity rejoins the DGP, Boscha takes advantage of her being caught up in a round bytrying to rape her. Before that, she manipulates Sasha into working together with her, and when she finally realizes how terrible of a person Boscha is, she uses a mind control potion on her, essentially turning her into her personal attack dog she can use to kill Luz. Even if her plan fails, Boscha's ultimate goal is to use her wish to completely remove Luz from existence.

Is this okay to keep, or should I delete it?

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#12505: Feb 18th 2024 at 3:11:11 PM

Cut it, if you want to add it go make a proposal on the thread

Edited by LarryT on Feb 18th 2024 at 3:12:29 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#12506: Feb 18th 2024 at 3:12:30 PM

If you only put it on the YMMV, cut it and propose it properly in the proposal thread

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
CrimsonAce Since: Oct, 2016
#12507: Feb 18th 2024 at 6:32:51 PM

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#12508: Feb 19th 2024 at 9:54:51 AM

I've been trying to get this across for several days now, but I finally succeeded. Overall, looking at Drifters, think Aram makes a difference. But there are a couple of things. In general, the bulk of his crimes are correct. Yes, he kidnaps women and at the end of episode 5 and beginning of episode 6 we see them in sexual slavery. Even the only video here for this anime shows this. But a small clarification. While he does seem to be generally responsible for killing any Drifters, we don't know if he killed any at all. But in relation to the tape itself and his worst crimes? His massacre of the village.

He does not order everyone to be killed, including children. Yes, he kills the elder and orders them to be killed, but not all of them. How does he himself argue? "We need to reduce your population" and after that his soldiers kill dozens of elves, including one boy, which is emphasized. Shara even asks him to kill him (apparently to "atone" for saving the Drifter with his brothers), but Aram rejects this, claiming that he's too young, noting that a future awaits him... a future as a despicable slave. And he also mocks that his brothers (whom Aram sent to kill because of helping the Wanderer) should already be dead. But despite the lower body count? I think he's still pretty bad. Taking women and handing them over to be raped by his soldiers (and maybe he raped them himself), while still killing dozens of the elves, including a child and ordering the death of two others, as well as his rather terrible treatment of elves in general for a Starter Villain? Personally, I think he's still good.

Oh, and lastly, there is only one villager in the village and Aram’s anger is precisely because two teenage elves helped the Wanderer, and not in paying taxes. The elder even notes that it's their fault, not the whole village's (which probably makes Aram even worse, since it's one thing to be mad about not paying taxes, but to kill dozens of elves, including a teenager, just because two of them did they help the Wanderer a little?) and even when Aram completely forbids them to go into the forest, it is Shara who notes that because Aram and his soldiers took their women, they are forbidden to go into the forest and so on, and not the villager. In general, most of the information is correct, but Aram's last crime is less terrible than it was written (and this is the only thing that is inaccurate in the recording), as well as in Aram's motives and his conversation with the village. But despite this, I think he's still pretty bad. What are others saying? Is Aram still bad enough? If the thread agrees that he is fine, I will then rewrite his entre to clarify that he is not trying to kill the entire village.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Feb 19th 2024 at 9:56:23 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#12509: Feb 19th 2024 at 11:06:45 AM

Oh, and with the swaps this upcoming weekend, Monster Dragon Ball Fan Works will be launched. Ditto Monster Road Kill Texas Horror By Texas Writers once Jackie gets a quote.

YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#12510: Feb 19th 2024 at 1:17:49 PM

So did we ever reach a consensus on Arkhamverse Penguin?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#12511: Feb 19th 2024 at 1:20:58 PM

Yeah he was pretty much a cut IIRC.

YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#12512: Feb 19th 2024 at 1:25:27 PM

just checking because i remember one time where we "reached a consensus" then like a month went by and the character still was up. Just being cautious

TheLaurelCrownedRaven Since: Apr, 2022 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
#12513: Feb 20th 2024 at 2:50:12 AM

I think this music example should be cut.

  • "Jack the Ripper": The narrator of the song, indicated to be the titular serial killer relishing blood in his hands slipping through his fingers "like lives I take", viciously taunts and mocks his victims all throughout the song, hounding with the repeated chorus of "where you gonna go / whatcha gonna do?" The song ends as the narrator concludes with his slaughter, gleefully summing up how he hasn't any remorse, thanking the victim for "everything they did" to fulfill his desire.

Here’s why I believe Jack should hit the road: Much like the previously cut ‘Last Caress’ character, the song is only about Jack murdering people, with no further narrative. Full lyrics here.

What do you think?

EDIT: Also, speaking of cuts, did we reach a decision on the House on the Hill?

Edited by TheLaurelCrownedRaven on Feb 20th 2024 at 11:21:26 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#12514: Feb 20th 2024 at 3:56:07 AM

Can someone please gimme a list of all of the consensus cuts (including the House if it was agreed)? I'll take care of those today (though if someone wants to save me the work, by all means. Just please don't forget the former CM page, and adding the Sandboxes to the swap list).

I think I'm fine keeping Jack.

jlvs200s from The Netherlands (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I miss my wife, Tails
#12515: Feb 20th 2024 at 4:02:08 AM

[up] The consensus cuts are The Penguin from the Batman: Arkham Series (discussion starts here) and Rize and Niruma from Tokyo Ghoul (discussion starts here). The House on the Hill also seems to be a consensus cut, although there only were 4 cut votes, so I'd say it's best to wait until we get more votes to confirm their removal (discussion starts here).

Furthermore, does anybody want to give more input on this?

Edit: I've removed the Penguin and the Tokyo Ghoul duo from the sandboxes and added entries for them to the Former Complete Monster Sandbox.

Edited by jlvs200s on Feb 20th 2024 at 1:34:27 PM

"The time has come for every last Shoppe... No! The time has come for the DREAM KINGDOM to bow down to me! Gotcha ! Hee-hee!" | He/Him
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#12516: Feb 20th 2024 at 4:06:38 AM

Appreciated.

And yes, I support the expanded reason for DOR.

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#12517: Feb 20th 2024 at 4:15:58 AM

I’ll take a look at Jack later, but regarding Aram, my question is how does he compare to other villains in the manga?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#12519: Feb 20th 2024 at 6:14:32 AM

[up][up]Of all the minor villains? Aram is probably the worst. If he talks about everyone, then the main antagonist of Black King strives to destroy all of humanity, but he has much more resources (if anyone is interested, he doesn’t count, since he sincerely cares about his subordinates, sincerely congratulating them on their successes and heals the wounds of those who survived, while he also teaches farming and building a civilization when he is gone and he is an extremist who sincerely believes that humanity is a threat to everyone and is an absolute evil, striving to build civilization and a good life for all other races. Overall, he is something like Anti-Villain). His subordinates simply help him, without having their own important and notable crimes (among them is Gilles de Rais, who in real life is a serial child killer, but this aspect is not particularly deepened and studied). There is Easy which supports Ends and the Black King, but that's all she does and it's only subtly implied.

There is Adolf Hitler himself, but all he does is found the kingdom of Orte and bring racism against other races. This is all. Count Saint-Germain also doesn't do anything truly disgusting and Aram is infinitely superior to him in cruelty and depravity. It is important to emphasize that in general, for the most part, all this is aimed at an anime adaptation. Here by suggestion, G also suggested Aram primarily from the anime. But it seems to be the same thing from the manga. But it also doesn't seem like there were any other villains of any significant heinousness introduced.

Changed description Dor-15 looks very good and of high quality.

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#12520: Feb 20th 2024 at 6:22:41 AM

Ah, Aram sounds like a keep. Thank you so much for doing this smile

jlvs200s from The Netherlands (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I miss my wife, Tails
#12521: Feb 20th 2024 at 7:30:38 AM

Keep Aram and wait for more input on Jack the Ripper.

Remember when I cut Robert Hallo from Transformers: Generation One due to me uncovering he was originally proposed by a ban evader while rereading the old cleanup thread? Well I discovered something else about a ban evader candidate while rereading the old cleanup thread that might lead to them being relisted. From Transformers: More than Meets the Eye:

  • Froid is a former rival and friend of Rung who aids in brainwashing dissidents of the corrupt Cybertronian Senate and makes a deal with Sunder, offering to provide victims in return for Sunder aiding Froid in his research. Using Sunder to become wealthy and famous through the latter's ability to read memories, Froid secretly gives innocents for Sunder to kill. Froid boards the Lost Light to seek new victims for Sunder and tries to blackmail Rung—whose work he plagiarized—into giving Froid his patient files, releasing Sunder upon him as a distraction to escape when Rung refuses. Later, Froid nudges the Autobot Getaway's darker impulses for his own perverse curiosity, leading the latter to sacrifice some of his crew to Sunder.
While I was re-reading the old threads I noticed that the entry for Froid that was removed February 2023 wasn't the entry made by the ban evader, but a rewrite made in 2020 after the EPs of Nova Prime and Bludgeon.
I'm asking if it's possible Froid can be re-instated due to his previous entry not being made by a ban evader, even if his proposal was. I do feel there is precident for relisting a ban evader candidate if their write-up wasn't made by the ban evader, given that one of our Transformers Magnificent Bastards (Noah Diaz) was also originally proposed by another sock of that same ban evader, but was written up by Doodslayer and kept.
Furthermore, back when I tried adding several of the ban evader candidates removed in February 2023 to the sandbox, I came across an entry for another character who was also proposed by a ban evader on a YMMV page and tried to cutlist said page due to the entry being the only thing on there. After a discussion it was decided to relist the character due to them being written-up and vouched for by a trustworthy user.
So, with the info i've given, is there enough justification to relist Froid despite them being proposed by a ban evader if their current entry was made by trustworthy tropers?
[down] That's definitely something worth discussing, thanks for bringing it up! I'll wait choosing to vote to either re-instate him or keep him removed pending further input, but it's great that we'll have less ban evader candidates awaiting re-evals.

Edited by jlvs200s on Feb 21st 2024 at 10:46:44 AM

"The time has come for every last Shoppe... No! The time has come for the DREAM KINGDOM to bow down to me! Gotcha ! Hee-hee!" | He/Him
Pemulis_128 A 20th Century Boy from Teleporting behind you Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
A 20th Century Boy
#12522: Feb 20th 2024 at 10:52:30 AM

I haven't been too active here due to my busy personal life schedule, but I have had thoughts about Froid in the past couple months. Having read the comic for myself recently, I'm having doubts on whether he actually counts aside from any ban evader issues.

While he is absolutely a nasty villain, there are two moments in Lost Light (MTMTE's rebranded third "season") that make me hesitate. The first is in issue 11, when Froid describes Getaway's treatment of Tailgate as "predatory" in a way that implies disgust towards him. The other is in issue 12, where Froid expresses a hope that Rung was not killed by the DJD, calling him "one of life's good guys" despite the bitter rivalry between the two. While the latter could be explained as being part of Froid's manipulation of Getaway and his delusions, the former seems harder to rationalize. I tried to find if these potential mitigating scenes were discussed (since the original EP and entry appears to be from before "Lost Light" was published), but had no luck with the search engine.

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#12523: Feb 20th 2024 at 12:29:47 PM

going back to Jack… I say cut him

in addition to the above mentioned reasons, the song describes his crimes really really vaguely, only how he goes out on a vague killing spree and how he feels about murder. We don’t get a body count and he’s the only character in the song.

I vote cut

jlvs200s from The Netherlands (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I miss my wife, Tails
#12524: Feb 20th 2024 at 12:30:24 PM

Cut Jack

"The time has come for every last Shoppe... No! The time has come for the DREAM KINGDOM to bow down to me! Gotcha ! Hee-hee!" | He/Him
YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#12525: Feb 21st 2024 at 5:53:02 PM

  • Before Crisis: Fuhito is a scientist for the original AVALANCHE. Fuhito, who idolized Hojo, found a way to copy part of Shinra's SOLDIER program, which he uses to create his own variants; this degrades the mind of the victim, and turns said victim into a monster. He takes two of the SOLDIERs Zack later remembers and turns them into abominations on par with Hojo's aberrations. He later finds an ancient Ultimate Summon that has been broken long, long ago. He builds on Hojo's having implanted a piece in an innocent girl, transforming her into a weapon to be AVALANCHE's spearhead against Shinra, while the piece starts sucking out her life to rebuild itself. He establishes a firm power base to release the Summon, which would burn the entirety of the world. In the end, he winds up taking it all and merging with it.

Ok I actually just checked out the work and I can say while this man is utterly insane he is trying to kill everyone so there deaths can restore him he slowly dying planet and I can confirm he doesn’t have a secret alternative motive or is this a secretly a way for him to become a god, he genuinely believes he is saving the planet

I say cut him


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