Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
I mean, probably? Religions evolve over time, after all, and interpretations tend to be very subjective. Looking the Demiurge up on Wikipedia, there's apparently a lot of varied interpretations and theories—including whether or not he's the son of Sophia (that's a first for me) or one-and-the-same as Satan.
So, I hate being that guy, but I think 2 C Ms from Blue Eye Samurai should be cut:
- Abijah Fowler is a ruthless, cruel, and wantonly bloodthirsty Irish Arms Dealer and one of the Four White Devils who plots the takeover of Japan. Once a boy who lost his family to famine, Fowler turned to a new outlook on life where nobody else but himself mattered. Growing sadistic over the years, Fowler plots a violent coup against the Shogun that will see thousands of his men dead and the crowning of a puppet shogun for Fowler to control Japan from the shadows, with Fowler hoping to personally kill the Shogun and his entire family. Having birthed plenty of bastard "half-breed" children during his time in Japan, Fowler has them and their mothers killed, their bones littering his underground tunnels. Using his traitorous henchmen as target practice after their failed attempt to kill him, Fowler ultimately wishes to open up Japan's borders to destroy the country's culture as his insurrection leads Edo to ruin. With the death of his own sister treated as a mere afterthought, Fowler's newfound philosophy is nothing more than an excuse to hurt those he deems beneath him.
- Heiji Shindo is Fowler's fellow mastermind in concocting the heinous plan to overthrow the Shogun. A seemingly-respectable lord who uses his political power to run a variety of crime rings involving Human Trafficking and gun smuggling, Shindo serves as Fowler's hands and feet in setting the stage for their grand plan to slaughter thousands of people in Edo. Shindo enjoys overseeing brutal torture sessions of prisoners, notably subjecting Taigen to days of it, and he routinely forces men who swear allegiance to him to chop their own thumbs off for his "collection". Fostering ambitions of his own, Shindo tries to betray and murder Fowler to carry out their plan for himself, only to let the blame for the treachery fall on someone else to save his own skin when Fowler survives. When Fowler's invasion of Edo begins, Shindo infiltrates the Shogun's castle and murders multiple innocents to open the way for Fowler's continued slaughter.
While both are highly heinous are overall big pieces of work, they do have reedeming traits: Fowler's folder:
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: At least from what he said from his backstory, he did legitimately love his sister and tried his best to keep her alive. Sure, he did cannabalize her, but only after she already died and after he protected her body from starving masses for 3 days.
- Even Evil Has Standards: Implied. He's a right and proper bastard throughout who's unapologetically deeply racist and sadistic to his core, but the way he comments about Skeffington and Routley being the worst of them to Mizu when bartering his life, as well as his early comments about how he "doesn't need souls" while talking to himself about his plan to seize the country in the chapel, give the implication that he was not fond of selling off people personally, if for no other reason than because he seems to be above that sort of trade.
- Freudian Excuse: Fowler regales Heiji Shindo with his past as a child during the Nine Years' War
and the subsequent Ulster famine, during which both his parents died and he had to cannibalize his sister's corpse to survive. This goes a long way to explain how he turned out to be such a nasty piece of work.
- A Lighter Shade of Black: Fowler says that as bad as he is, Skeffington and Routley are even worse. If what he says is true, then that is one hell of an accomplishment, given all the atrocities Fowler himself has committed.
Shindo's folder:
- Even Evil Has Standards: As amoral as he is, he still appears disturbed by Fowler's sheer level of depravity (and at one point outright tells Mizu he despises the man). The one-sided slaughter of the shogun's troops appears to bother him as well. He also seems rather perturbed by Fowler recounting his god-awful childhood during the 9 Years' War and Ulster Famine.
Edited by mammothhide on Feb 14th 2024 at 3:52:00 AM
It’s Depending on the Writer like a lot of cases of mythology CMs but the ones that aren’t Made of Evil can count
Edited by LarryT on Feb 14th 2024 at 4:10:07 AM
Fowler makes a sadistic joke about his sister's kidneys having "fat caps like peas" on them, which was deemed to undermine any care he felt towards her.
Having seen the series in question, he does sound genuinely bitter about having eaten her, saying that he vowed it would be the last time he did anything because he had to... but when I brought it up previously that concern was brushed aside.
Having seen the series myself, I am not sure about Fowler, but Shindo is fine to stay. He does dislike Fowler, but nothing indicates it's out of moral standards, especially considering that he himself is pretty depraved with his hobby of torturing prisoners and collecting people's thumbs and he just tries to despose of Fowler because he wants to replace him.
I’ve always been hesitant on Fowler. I guess my main point of contention is that I really don’t understand how the “fat caps” line is a joke; it’s callous, yeah, but he’s always been a dramatic bastard, and he says it in the middle of him describing how the experience was so horrible that he resolved to never allow himself to go through it again. It’s not quite explicit enough for my liking to 100% definitely disqualify any potential care.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 14th 2024 at 10:08:19 AM
While I can see Fowler's past being seen an issue by some, his references to Skeffington and Routley are definitely not disqualifying in the least as of yet. It could become an issue in S2 when we actually meet them, but as of now him saying they are "worse" does not mean much.
Shindo, though...has nothing redeeming about him. He personally kills and tortures plenty of people himself, the only reason he acts weird around Fowler is because he hates him—and not because of standards, but because of racism and "his smell".
Also, just as an overall note, generally speaking, the thread needs more than just "they have to be cut, because they have entries that say (X, Y and Z) on their character folder". Anyone can create and edit those entries, and they can be prone to exaggeration.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 14th 2024 at 7:08:13 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Keep Shindo and Fowler.
Got a question about a potential candidate. I watched through Punisher Uprising in order to see about reproposing its version of Nicky Cavella and I'm not quite sure if what he does is enough.
Original writeup for reference:
- Uprising (link
): Nicky Cavella is a crime boss who kidnaps women and children to be raped and tortured to death before stuffing their bodies with drugs to sell on the Black Market. Cavella threatens his men to do his work or their families will die if they fail to obey.
It's made pretty clear that he's the head of a human trafficking operation and it's said that this operation also involves stuffing the victims full of drugs, along with Frank saying that Cavella raped them as he's stabbing him.
My hesitation is that this is mostly (mercifully) not onscreen but there are some things we do somewhat see. It's clear what his operation is not only through dialogue but also the fact that the film opens with two women being brought before Cavella, who sends them to the "special room" to have fun with later (these two are never scene again) and when Frank rescues one of the operation's victims near the end of the movie, she describes how her daughter was killed and had drugs stuffed in her body. Cavella also intends to take his operation internationally instead of just being confined to NYC, and Frank is trying to stop that from happening throughout the movie.
So my question is would that be enough, or is it too off-screen for him to count?
Power, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's just something you are.Keep Shindo and abstain on Fowler.
Edit: ![]()
I'd say there's enough onscreen evidence of Nicky's crimes for him to keep as a Complete Monster.
Edited by jlvs200s on Feb 14th 2024 at 7:49:26 PM
"The time has come for every last Shoppe... No! The time has come for the DREAM KINGDOM to bow down to me! Gotcha ! Hee-hee!" | He/HimI honestly think that Hermann's entry needs a slight rewrite, since it stayed the same ever since it was posted in 2017.
- Complete Monster: The brutish Hermann is a former fighting dog who, in the wake of humanity's extinction, decides to kidnap a human child and start torturing him for days on end into submission. Dubbing the child "shit-boy" once he finally breaks from Hermann's tortures, Hermann continues torturing and starving the child for days on end out of nothing more than pleasure. Once the child dies, Hermann furiously targets Rover, Red, and Charlie, resolving to murder Red and turn Charlie and Rover into his new slaves in retribution. Even when confronted on his abusive past, Hermann points out he liked being a fighting dog and had no qualms with doing what his owners wanted, viciously attempting to murder everything in his way in the final battle.
The points are:
- The reason the "shit-boy" dies is because he follows Hermann when he falls in the ravine below, something that was the consequence of Hermann abusing him.
- Hermann doesn't really try to murder everyone in the final battle, only Red.
- His actions in general could use some more expansion.
Rewrite:
- Complete Monster: The brutish Hermann is a former fighting dog who, in the wake of humanity's extinction, kidnaps a human child and starts beating and starving him for days on end into submission. Dubbing the child "shit-boy" once he finally breaks from Hermann's abuse, the bulldog keeps the boy enslaved and further tortured for sheer pleasure, killing several chickens and having the child join him in the massacre during one farm raid. Said abuse results in the child unwittingly killing himself when Rover, Red and Charlie try to save him. Surviving his own apparent death, the vengeful Hermann tracks the trio for days before kidnapping Charlie and planning to use him as a bait and lure his companions into a trap. Succeeding, Hermann declares his intent on making Rover and Charlie his new slaves and nearly kills Red by viciously biting off one of his legs. Despite his abusive past, Hermann admits that he liked being a fighting dog and had no qualms with doing what his owners wanted, seeking thrill in emulating the very worst of human atrocities on his own volition.
Edited by DukeNukem4ever on Feb 15th 2024 at 1:46:13 AM
Noting for posterity that ~Noaqiyeum weighed in on Yaldabaoth in the fact checking thread
.
Edited by Spinosegnosaurus77 on Feb 14th 2024 at 8:08:35 AM
Peace is the only battle worth waging.
Fowler. He's a sadistic bastard, but he seems genuinely bitter over his Dark and Troubled Past and we've cut characters for similar reasons.
Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 14th 2024 at 9:30:28 AM
To make it clear, I'm formally for keeping Fowler at this junction and I don't think the issues being raised here are anything we didn't address during the initial proposal, we hashed out his backstory pretty thoroughly in said initial discussion and he was decided to keep then.
Plus, seeing as he's coming back for Season 2, I'm sure we'll get definitive assurance then and there that he either 1. is reiterated to be this trope and stays, or 2. is outclassed by Skeffington and Routely/has his backstory further elaborated upon, then has to be cut anyway. Until then, saying he should stay. This isn't an Akainu situation where new information is being used to warrant a cut—this was all addressed in the initial discussion and votes still swayed in the direction of keeping him, so until the next season and more new info comes, I think he keeps.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 14th 2024 at 10:40:45 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
