Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I can change that.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Should we take the Marvel Fan Works quotes to the Quotes thread for more opinions?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Probably the best way to go about it imo.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Okay I brought the two quotes to the Quotes thread here.
If we make a FNAF Fan Work page, should we include games and songs.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I think games are a guarantee. Though we will need a new image for Monster.Fan Games. I am unsure on songs though.
Edited by Bullman on Jan 31st 2024 at 11:59:14 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lizzid people!
Don't think there is enough. We should just focus on the main fan works page for now.
There are ten fic examples, five games, and seven songs.
Lizzid people!
Oh. Didn't know that.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I don't think we include songs. Those stay at Music.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I personally don't think Man Jack from the Graveyard Book is heinous enough to count as a CM. He only kills three people and then tries to kill the heroes. As far as I'm aware, this is considered standard villainy. It doesn't help that all of his actions were under orders, and the other members of his group also try to kill the heroes in the climax, so he just doesn't stand out at all.
The three people he killed are a child and his parents and I'm gonna argue trying to murder the protagonist while they're an infant goes beyond standard villainy. The writeup also indicates that many of the other Jacks are being directed on his orders. I'm gonna need more than this to support a cut on.
- Fate/stay night: Zouken Matou, head of the Matou mage family, is an ancient, revolting man who has long since forgotten everything save his pursuit of the Holy Grail and the power it can bestow upon him. Remaining alive by killing and stealing the bodies of his descendants, Zouken later adopted the young girl Sakura from the Tohsaka family, before using her as a host for magic worms, having them violate Sakura for over a decade. Zouken manipulates his wayward descendant Kariya into fighting the Grail War for him, fully intending on using Kariya as a sacrificial lamb, infesting him with the worms to shorten his life. After Sakura's power became too dangerous to control, Zouken had her adoptive brother Shinji rape her regularly to keep it under control. In the "Heaven's Feel" route, Zouken engineers a great amount of death and catastrophe, provoking Sakura into unlocking her hidden dark side, intending to seize her body as well and finally claim the Grail at long
As much as it pains me to do this he has to go
We only really kept him on account of his Zouken form being deemed a separate personality but unfortunately that is not true, he just forgot his past. And unfortunately when he does remember his past upon seeing the woman he loves again he remembers his old goal and realizes how far he had fallen and expresses hope that some day someone will accomplish the goal of salvation for mankind before accepting his death
So yeah not only does he still love Juzetease but the death is mittigating
So we got to cut the vile child rapist
Yeah, it sucks but having gotten the full picture he doesn't just become a new person, he's genuinely aghast by his own evil in one particular route. It's the same character just running different scenarios and there's something genuinely humanizing about him, as vile as the bastard is. Cut.
A total has-been.
But I thought that only happening in one route, combined with the fact that when his heart and mind goes back to being how it used to be he recognizes how far he fell but does not do anything redemptive besides just dying, was what kept him from being disqualified? It was discussed and everything? So why's this coming back now?
I know Master Xehanort had a similar conclusion in Kingdom Hearts III and even though I disagreed with it being grounds to cut him, the fact that Dark Road came out to double down on his Freudian Excuse and the sincerity of his and Eraqus' friendship made him a nonqualifier regardless. Zouken never got a Dark Road of his own and he is never treated as redeemable by the narative besides that single Death Equals Redemption moment in one route.
Edited by ANewMan on Feb 1st 2024 at 10:39:55 AM
Woagh
How is "shows genuine horror at his past actions" not automatically disqualifying?
Cut Zouken.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
It's "coming back" because it's worth reviewing. It might only happen in one route but it's still the same character, it's still an outlook he's capable of seeing and being horrified by. My thoughts on the writing aside, "he just dies" doesn't mean it isn't disqualifying, we'd list Yuda if we could just ignore clear sympathy for a villain as they pass. His "heart and mind" go back to being capable of recognizing the great evil he's gone to, it's a clear cut show the villain is capable of being horrified by what he's done. I'm maintaining my cut, this is a fair discussion.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He only shows up in one route anyway so moot point. And he literally reaffirms his love for Juzetese and expresses the desire for the world to be saved one day. Xehanort is a false equivalence.
All these arguments were misinformed in the past
Also if a character shows a redeeming quality in just one route it still counts unless there explicitly different characters.
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Feb 1st 2024 at 8:49:51 AM
Showtime!
Cut Zouken
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
A total has-been.
I think I got confused: he only appears in the Heaven's Feel route, but that route had different possible endings and Zouken getting a Death Equals Redemption was on the last, most "true" ending.
Considering the last stated criteria for this trope is "they show no regret for their crimes" and this instance violates that, then it's fair to cut Zouken.
Jogo
Cut Zouken
"Stand proud, Sukuna, you are strong." | He/Him
I should clarify that the Zouken redemptive desth also happened in the normal ending, even if we didn’t see it
Not the Eye
Cut Zouken
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Are we allowed to include only certain routes/endings, or is that cheating?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
For Nekros Skullcrusher from Warcraft, I noticed that "warlock" is potholed to Magic Knight, but a more appropriate pothole for the word would be Evil Sorcerer. A lot of warlocks can't fight in close combat, and while Nekros used to be a warrior, he lost one of his legs before the story begun and before he starts doing the actions described in his CM entry, meaning his warrior days are in the past (which is something he even constantly laments about).
Edited by WatTambor on Jan 31st 2024 at 2:53:10 PM