Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Considering we're currently on the topic of cleaning up, I believe that Count Veger from Jak 3 should be removed as well. Sorry, but I know the game well and nothing about Veger warrants him being considered a CM. Nobody takes him seriously, his worst crimes are off-screen and his final fate is comedic. Compared to Erol, an Omnicidal Maniac, he's not even worth mentioning. Hate Sink? Yes. CM? No.
Collector of Worlds
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The proposed rules revision. If we're removing the "baseline" standard, though... huh. I'll have to think on that.
RIP Toriyama
Saying Keep Veger both because I think he keeps, but also because the removal post is very vague. We can't cut someone based on something like that, just like we can't list someone based on something so short.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Same with Ravok. Keep Veger.
Edited by Michealthehero21 on Jan 24th 2024 at 3:07:35 AM
I'm gonna say keep Veger unless I get a more detailed reason to cut him
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Collector of Worlds
Actually yeah, keep Vegar until we get more info. Though I did see he has this on his character page:
- Even Evil Has Standards: A scene in Daxter has him arguing against the Dark Warrior Program, saying straight-up that it is a bad idea. For his entire villian arc within the series, this is a surprising twist within his character.
Saying something is a bad idea sounds less like standards and more just not thinking it'll work
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Also anyone with an account can write this stuff on character pages
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think I may like the Carnage quote better FWIW.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I like the Carnage quote. Also keep Veger.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Keep Count Veggie, that seems more like pragmatic villainy.
IPP Wick Check created.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm more interested in initial reasons (namely that he isn't taken seriously enough and might fail the heinous standard) as Veger's objection sounds like Pragmatic Villainy (which has never been disqualifying) and nothing more. I'm going to abstain.
Edited by Idisagree on Jan 24th 2024 at 6:34:44 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
I noticed my character Jug from the Genesis Universe isn't on the Marvel Comics page with the other Genesis Universe baddies. Then I also noticed that for some reason he's on this page but not even on the same tree as Gravestone when he's in the same comic as the Night-Plague.
Soo... after asking at the Hate Sink thread if Tsumugi Shirogane was detestable enough for a Hate Sink I got this response. "Regarding Danganronoa V3, not sure if Tsumugi is comedic enough after the reveal, but they have Near-Villain Victory, The Determinator and a Graceful Loser, while also not being the leader of the organization." Now from what I remember of the ending of V3, Tsumugi DOES give up gracefully, and I'm wondering if that's enough of a redeeming quality to spare her from Complete Monster? There's also the ambiguity of the situation with her acting completely different pre brainwashing to the current Tsumugi so honestly I've got my doubts about her counting.
I understand the argument for her counting was "She chose the mastermind position and this was an AU from Danganronpa 1 and 2 and Killer Killer" but I'm still wondering if that flies when the ending is so damn vague about the Ambiguous Situation of the game truly being real fiction meaning DR 1 and KK could have technically happened and thus she would fail the standard.
Here's the pregame characters in a video here.
It appears Tsumugi is just as shocked as everyone else until the brainwashing.
Edited by Klavice on Jan 24th 2024 at 8:51:52 AM
The biggest concern about her for me is how she's indicated to be just a cog in the machine for a much larger corporation. No way that her Graceful loser thing is portrayed as migitating and anything BEFORE exposing herself is likely to put up appearances.
Keep Tsumugi
i don’t really really understand the point your trying to make Klavice
Also we already adressed the cog Me ex, she is the only member that bothers to try and keep the games running or go as far as she does so she still stands out
the Retromancer
A bigger issue to me that anything she does, she does as a member of an evil organization and lacks other clear motives. She may be a Mastermind of 53th Killing Game, but self-evidently, Team Danganronpa are the ones in charge who put her in that position, and at unknown point in the past have started to make "real killing games" before she joined.
It's also unknown what her duties as a Mastermind even are aside operating the game, and her puppet Monokuma is both autonomous and has been around before her. The only time it's shown she did something herself is killing a participant and framing another participant to get the game started, and she could be in danger if she hasn't done so.
Additionally, as the game notes, whatever Team Danganronpa is doing is considered legal in the setting. If the interpretation that Tsumugi has volunteered is true, then it's not that unreasonable that someone would want to be "The Big Bad by contract of the most popular Show Within a Show". As she notes, she pretty much considers participants including herself the products of Team Danganronpa due their artificial personalities and her treating it like a dream job. It's also ambigious if she wasn't brainwashed also.
Regarding the ending, when the audience asks to stop, she stops with no fuss and goes through Face Death with Dignity.
In contrast, the interview (if taken for granted) shows real Shuichi directly saying he wants to kill people even if he'll be executed, as well as in-game Korekio being a depraved Serial Killer with 98 victims.
e: ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Edited by Amonimus on Jan 25th 2024 at 3:51:18 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Koeekyo killing people was fake
Also it’s left ambiguous if the Shuchi interview was real
I agree that she probably does fail to Monokuma who outright says he has been part of other games and it is off screen because the Rantaro one is important to the plot
Although we do know that she is the one who can create the the Monokuma’s and wrote the plot
Question what’s Monokuma’s issues with being CM?
Too comedic?
Edited by YorkobeShounen on Jan 25th 2024 at 4:59:55 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Well, Monokuma in the usual games technically does count, its just that he's not an individual entity so much as a mouthpiece for Junko.
Is the version of Monokuma from the verse in V3 different?
Edited by Snoketrope on Jan 25th 2024 at 5:00:02 AM
The First man
Yes he is different.
V3 Monokuma is an Ai that is shown to be separate from the mastermind
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Sounds like he could be worth a talk then.
The First man
My issue is if he is played for laughs at moments or not
Looks like we'll wait more people chime in to see if Tsumugi counts and if she doesn't it's because of the ambiguity of the entire thing.
x6 I'm sure she's not the only mastermind/show host out there though, there were 52 killing games prior. Also none of the other members (unless you count Monokuma) ever show up on-screen.
Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 25th 2024 at 9:33:47 PM
I have a potential quote for the Marvel Fan Works Monster page (if it's too long, you could also cut it at the 'high score' line):
I also posted this on the Proposal thread.
I will claim what is rightfully mine, and rebuild the Kryptonian Empire.