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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10826: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:44:22 PM

Yeah, such cases are gonna be incredibly rare, it almost never happens but just like in cases like the Halloween quartet, there are exceptions and they deserve to be discussed and, if they apply, listed and not disqualified because of some arbitrary "well if it was 3 they would be fine, but 4? 5? Too many." No "floodgates" are gonna open and it's not insanity to discuss.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#10827: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:44:23 PM

Yeah, I want NO hard limit, and also agree with the likelihood of such a situation happening being rare.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#10828: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:44:37 PM

I am with Ravok. While I would be highly unlikely to vote up say, group 10 people, I think we are okay withous hard limit and go by case by case basic where they are either The Dividual and they share atrocities and all get enought characterisation or all members are given individual touches.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Dec 25th 2023 at 2:46:04 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#10829: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:47:02 PM

Giving an example of a cult of 8 counting under the new rules made my eyes glaze over. If you want to make a case for a rare 4, that's worrisome to me but pushing for anything higher just makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10830: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:50:39 PM

You can shake your head and express your discontent all you like Lore, that's your right and if you have a problem with any such examples you are not required to vote if and when they come up. But we're discussing this and the votes will decide. And frankly, such comments are not productive to this discussion.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 25th 2023 at 2:53:58 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#10831: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:56:56 PM

If the trope is supposed to be about the worst of there worst villains, in which we've discussed individual crimes between different characters to see if one flanks the standard next to the other, how can anyone within large groups possibly stand out as an inherently worse character than the others.

I cannot see this as anything other than going against one the core tenets the Complete Monster trope was shaped around after all these specific guidelines were hammered out.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#10832: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:57:17 PM

I don't often vote on CM but my take on it is this: let's say hypothetically you had a group of 8 villains all reasonably well characterized and all relatively equal for there standing in the scheme. If you were to randomly take any 3 of those characters and EP as a group and you could be reasonably assured that you'd get a pass for those 3 as a group, then the whole group of 8 counts.

That's my take. I don't see this happening often. If you do have a group of 8 some are inevitably going to be outshined or have redeeming qualities.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#10833: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:59:15 PM

I don't know if my opinion will be of use here, but i do think that a group of 8 will be stretching the rule, since i think by this point, without clear leader or the one, who's actively instigates atrocities, they all just blend into "mass of evil" with no uniquness or individuality.

Group of 10 will be pretty bizzare and even more destroying the individuality part of Complete Monster.

I do believe though that group of 4 at least can be allowed, since they can be able to retain the individuality and uniquness needed for this trope.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Dec 25th 2023 at 2:01:00 PM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#10834: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:59:21 PM

I don’t see how it’s much different from a single work having a huge amount of keepers. Criminal Minds alone has 15 keepers of the “worst of the worst” in one show. If 6 of them were theoretically working together would they no longer count?

Also, guys, the 8 number was clearly a hypothetical, so I don’t know why that’s the number we keep focusing on here. The entire point is that no one is arguing for a hard limit

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Dec 25th 2023 at 6:00:42 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#10835: Dec 25th 2023 at 2:59:44 PM

[up][up][up]By that logic, none of them would count because none of them actually stand out from what they are all doing. I'd rather have zero count and no new example listed than to list all 8 in that circumstance.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Dec 25th 2023 at 2:59:56 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#10836: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:00:15 PM

Lore, this is al theoretical, there's not a hard number anymore but we can still use our judgement when a group gets too big to count collectively, the chances of us approving a group of 8 is next to nil anyway

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10837: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:02:39 PM

Yes, exactly what J said. If there is a group of 8 murder-rapists who, if you removed 5 of them, would have the exact same rapsheet and the exact same characterization, thus making it a "trio of 3" who would count by current standards, then it's arbitrary to say that the 8 themselves can't count just fine. The group of 8 still stands out as particularly heinous and evil in the story, just like a group of 3 would. If there's no difference in a group of 3 versus the group of 8 (as in, they all do the same thing, they all have no redeeming features, there's no discernible leader), then drawing the line in the sand because of a number you feel is "too much" is arbitrary, IMO.

8 is a hypothetical number anyway and will almost never be an actual issue. Let's just vote here and let that solve it.

I vote to remove a hard limit for numbers in a group, and to judge it moreso on a case by case basis.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#10838: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:03:57 PM

[up][up][up][up]We have multiple franchises with multiple keepers, people decided those count because each one was able to stand out individually and among the standard. If they were all one group with no individuality among them in deeds, they would end up blending among each other so much, i think nobody would have counted.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Dec 25th 2023 at 2:04:20 PM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#10839: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:05:34 PM

[up] I know, that’s not what I’m arguing - I’m saying if you take any random sample size of CMs from a work or franchise that has a few of them, slap them in a group, and have them all retain their same deeds but now they’re somehow working together - would that mean they no longer count in the first place, even though they all have different roles and variations in deeds, just because they’re in a group?

[down] Then we’re in agreement cause that’s the point I’m trying to make

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Dec 25th 2023 at 6:08:50 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#10840: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:08:12 PM

[up]They do, but since every one of them remained an individual, i think they would be unique enough even among each other, to the point that i think they would still have separate writeups and not one single entry for all of them.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#10841: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:11:26 PM

I think we're getting caught up on a theoretical, in all likelihood this isn't going to change much, just we occasionally we get groups like the Halloween quartet only with an extra person or two, and even then probably not since groups of that size will probably have a leader of some type

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10842: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:12:02 PM

Yeah we're arguing a lot of theoreticals that are gonna be rare if ever, and we'll handle them when they come up.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10843: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:12:33 PM

I don't really see a point in listing 8 random faceless bad guys who share stuff. If none of them stand out from each oyher why bother at all.

That just sounds weird to list a whole organization or cult like what was suggested.

I mean if they count indivudaly Than sure give them seperate entries.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10844: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:50:57 PM

Again, 8 is a hypothetical that will almost never happen. I regret ever using it as an example if everyone was going to take it so literally. The idea is just to loosen group restrictions to case-by-case with no hard limit, and that's where my vote is. We'll handle these incredibly unique cases as they come and if they don't qualify then we'll downvote.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 25th 2023 at 3:51:53 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#10845: Dec 25th 2023 at 3:59:57 PM

I guess the reason this caused such a divide is because Complete Monster supposed to have individuality, be a person, not some group.

The reason why the hard limit was set on 3, was because it is near max small group that is small enough to allow it's members to be individuals and characters and be small enough to not be able to affect each other heinous wise with the fact that they commit the same crimes (if a group of 8, using this as an example, but the situation would be the same even if it was a group of 6, commits the same crimes, than it affects the heinous standard more, CM should be unique, if he is interchangable with so many other characters, he is far less likely to stand out, if it's even possible for him to stand out at all).

A group of 4 is, to my opinion anyway, is still small enough group to be able to count without affecting each other as individuals or in heinousness. Anything larger than that needs to have a strong case on how each member remains an individual and doesn't cancel each other out by affecting heinous standard, and several people here (including me) don't believe that such thing is possible.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Dec 25th 2023 at 3:03:21 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10846: Dec 25th 2023 at 4:04:36 PM

Anything larger than that needs to have a strong case on how each member remains an individual and doesn't cancel each other out by affecting heinous standard

Yes, but you're also admitting that it "needs a strong case", which is what we're getting at. That there could be very rare cases where it's worth discussion and might have a strong case, and that by removing the hard limit it will promote discussion with said strong case. If such a case is brought up and you feel it doesn't apply, you can always downvote it for your reasoning—removing the rule of a hard limit isn't going to negatively affect the trope or dilute it or make it so every group now counts so long as democratic voting is still in place. And that process will still be in place, so I really don't see the point in keeping an arbitrary number in place.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 25th 2023 at 4:05:27 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10847: Dec 25th 2023 at 4:09:21 PM

Yeah but I think doing away witb the limit at all isn't something that's going to go down well here. I don't mind loosening the number (again I'll repeat that part) but I don't really want examples like that where we get a bunch of interchangeable villains.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#10848: Dec 25th 2023 at 4:12:33 PM

I mean 8 candidates in the same group I don't think is going to ever realistically happen.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10849: Dec 25th 2023 at 4:15:56 PM

Why would it not "go down well"? Most of us here are able to debate and discuss things without devolving into outrage. The people who can't need to take a step back and breathe. We don't have a hard limit on redeeming features or FE, there are case-by-case scenarios where a villain may have a FE but it's worth discussing. And nothing has "not gone down well" from other rule loosening like agency or Offscreen Villainy. "But what if someone starts proposing every single Made of Evil character???" was a concern brought up when we discussed loosening agency rules, and it has not been a problem—this won't either.

And in a case where something comes up that is just a bunch of "faceless villains", we can discuss and downvote it. Just like we would anyway. This is not some major change that's gonna enable people to start proposing the entire Nazi regime, just open the door for more discussion on groups we normally would have immediately shot down. That's all.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 25th 2023 at 4:17:04 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10850: Dec 25th 2023 at 5:11:51 PM

Okay let me flip this. In what scenario would you suggest we would approve a group of say seven people interchangeable bad guys as part of a cult.

I'm just asking as it's not really clear what thus scenario is?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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