TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Complete Monster Cleanup

Go To

Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#10326: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:03:17 PM

Thanks for the vote Forgo but it should go on the proposal thread

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
WiseGangster Since: Aug, 2023
#10327: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:06:43 PM

From the Hotline Miami YMMV page:

  • Complete Monster: The Janitors — real names Dennis and Jonatan — are a duo of terrorists and members of the ultranationalist group 50 Blessings, who are responsible for many events in the series. Attempting to make America more powerful in their own vision, the Janitors manipulate the citizens of Miami to slaughter members of the Russian Mafia by sending out cryptic and threatening phone calls, and either take action against those who do not comply, leave them to die at the hands of the Russians if they fail their mission, or simply eliminate them once they outlive their usefulness. When one of their victims, Richter, dismisses the phone calls, the Janitors torch his car and threaten to have his sickly mother murdered. The Janitors then send Richter to kill Jacket, costing the life of Jacket's girlfriend and putting Jacket into a coma. When Richter is sent to prison for his botched assassination attempt, the Janitors hire an inmate to kill Richter to tie up loose ends and orchestrate a prison riot to make sure Richter dies, causing countless deaths. Despite their claims, the Janitors are simply a pair of sadistic hypocrites who are no better than the Russians they resent.

It's clearly about a duo of characters rather than a single one. And the janitors don't have enough screen time to confirm if they're iredeemable or not. They could have loved ones offscreens, who knows?

Edited by WiseGangster on Nov 18th 2023 at 12:06:58 PM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#10328: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:10:07 PM

Groups of 2 or 3 are fine, and short screen time isn't a limit, yes it is possible they have loved ones that are just never mentioned but if the work itself does nothing to indicate it then it doesn't matter, we assume they don't have any unless indicated otherwise

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#10329: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:10:40 PM

[nja]'d by Agent

Edited by WetFlannels on Nov 18th 2023 at 8:10:53 PM

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10330: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:21:35 PM

What Agent says. We can't assume redeemability if it's never brought up in the story. And there are plenty of keepers who are a group of two or 3.

As for Corypheus: Agent, I'm fine with whatever you decide. I'll let you take care of the Sandbox in this case.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10331: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:34:37 PM

Oh, for Alan Wake II...yeah, I think we gotta cut Mr. Scratch from the previous game. He comes back in II a...very, very different being that basically reveals he's just another extension of the overall Dark Presence, which is so unknowable that it doesn't count—and all Scratch is is one of its agents that thinks he's one thing, when really he's just a facet of the Presence. Scratch's agency has been extremely complicated by his return and the reveal it came with that he's always been this way. While American Nightmare presented a scenario of his creation that wouldn't imply too many agency issues, this game reveals that scenario wasn't entirely accurate and his actual nature is lacking agency. So yeah, snip away.

Edited by Ravok on Nov 18th 2023 at 2:05:58 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#10332: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:42:39 PM

So it's like the thing with the mind flayer and Vecna? Sure to scratching Scratch

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10333: Nov 18th 2023 at 12:50:12 PM

Cut scratch.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10335: Nov 18th 2023 at 1:09:54 PM

My head hurts trying to make sense of that [lol]

Cut him. Any new candidates from the game, or is Hartman the only one from the series?

Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#10336: Nov 18th 2023 at 1:55:47 PM

Jackie already said this in the suggestion thread, ACW. No, there are no new candidates, so Hartman is the only CM.

therealjackieboy ,,Alrighty, it's been thirteen years, but Alan Wake II has finally arrived... with zero new keeps. None of the characters come close to the heinous standard, while others have redeeming qualities. Emil Hartman still keeps tho.

As for Mr. Scratch? Well, he might have to get cut, as his origin is far more confusing than usual (considering this game is far more of a psychological Mind Screw horror story compared to American Nightmare's pulpy tone), to the point where Scratch's actions make him feel more like he's Made of Evil. Or is he? We're not sure.

tl;dr Nobody keeps, Emil stays, and Scratch might have to go. More details on that in the Cleanup Thread later."

Ah, the sad cutting of Scratch. It's annoying when C Ms come back in the sequel and get disqualifying qualities. Although, to its credit, Scratch has always been unclear about his moral freedom.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Nov 18th 2023 at 1:58:41 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10337: Nov 18th 2023 at 2:05:29 PM

Yeah, Vecna and Mind Flayer is a good way to put it. The Dark Presence (Vecna) is the true Big Bad and Mr. Scratch (the Mind Flayer) is just an extension of it. But unlike in the case of Vecna, the Dark Presence isn't characterized enough, so even though Scratch is, he's still just a puppet of its will.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#10338: Nov 18th 2023 at 2:38:04 PM

Cut Scratch

Anyway I have an issue with a Sailor Moon candidate, (EP), the Xenian Flower.

Now heinousness and irredeemability are not an issue my issue is, and the EP doesn’t mention this, that there’s evidence to suggest that it’s Always Chaotic Evil:

Artemis: “It’s an evil flower, it tries to extract energy from every planet there is, it’s the most dangerous life form in this universe”

It is manipulative and smug but it ultimately seems to be a parasitic life form that l don’t think has agency and just seems to be acting on basic instinct. What do you all think?

Edited by LarryT on Nov 18th 2023 at 2:38:28 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#10339: Nov 18th 2023 at 2:40:29 PM

Is there any other proof other than the characters calling it "evil"? Cuz that sounds too vague to be really disqualifying.

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#10340: Nov 18th 2023 at 2:47:19 PM

[up]Always Chaotic Evil might not be the best term, but it still comes off as a predator trying to feed, a particularly intelligent predator sure, but it never shows any active maliciousness in its actions, it just comes off as a smart predator acting on instinct.

[down]there are not, I did check the wiki to see if there are any other appearances, and there weren’t any. I know we have some predators up, but all of those are actively sadistic and malicious in their actions, the flower never acts like that and only tries to absorb the planet and tries to kill the Sailor Gaurdians.

Edited by LarryT on Nov 18th 2023 at 2:59:12 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#10341: Nov 18th 2023 at 2:53:43 PM

Are any other flowers shown? We have several predators voted up due to being over the necessity of feeding.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#10342: Nov 18th 2023 at 3:14:52 PM

Is there any indication that it has to consume whole worlds? Also the original EP does describe it as sadistic

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#10343: Nov 18th 2023 at 3:20:37 PM

I missed that when I read the EP but the flower doesn’t show any sadistic tendencies or indicates she’s doing it For the Evulz, she doesn’t talk that much outside of manipulating Fiore.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#10344: Nov 18th 2023 at 3:27:09 PM

If her only dialogue is manipulating a hero it honestly doesn't sound like enough to indicate it has eat worlds and the idea that it's just a hungry predator sounds more like speculation to me

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#10345: Nov 18th 2023 at 3:27:42 PM

I'll let someone else chime in but a weak keep for the flower, but Scratch may need to go.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Nov 18th 2023 at 3:28:12 AM

IPP Wick Check created.
LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#10346: Nov 18th 2023 at 3:44:54 PM

[up][up] I should probably get better at explaining myself, but what I’m trying to say is that it doesn’t really have a personality or any dialogue outside of giving a few suggestions to Fiore, it never shows any actual motivation for its crimes.

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#10348: Nov 18th 2023 at 10:41:16 PM

I would like to ask a bit more on Scratch. If he is supposed to be the presence itself taking a form based on Alan as a puppet, wouldn't that give the presence an actual personality? I just wanted to ask how this is portrayed exactly.

Bow to the Prototype
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10349: Nov 18th 2023 at 11:25:44 PM

The Presence is, basically, an Eldritch Abomination that surfaces through a very, very weird process of creativity and imagination from the real world itself giving it form. Its agency and very nature are both incredibly sketchy. Scratch is its agent and is synonymous with it to a point, but he's just one "branch" of it while not actually, fully recognizing that he's nothing but a part of the Presence itself. Scratch thinks he's "more", but that's just the nature of his creation and role the Presence has put him in. The Presence is still depicted as a separate-enough entity, with Scratch being nothing but a characterized minion in its arsenal. This is a very weird series that draws heavily on things like Twin Peaks and all its bizarre nature, so while it's difficult to explain easily, that's basically the gist of it.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#10350: Nov 18th 2023 at 11:29:28 PM

Ah so he's not a full on Vessel for the presence and is still independent to an extent, so where the presence ends and Scratch begins is murky?

Thanks for clarifying. I think I will edge for a cut on Scratch too.

Bow to the Prototype

Total posts: 18,821
Top