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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#10151: Nov 6th 2023 at 5:44:28 AM

[tup]rewrite

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#10152: Nov 6th 2023 at 6:00:02 AM

[tup] To the rewrite, but one suggestion maybe instead of breaks Drew’s little brother Mikey’s arm pothole breaks Drew’s little brother Mikey’s arm instead? Just a thought.

[down] I like that better

Edited by LarryT on Nov 6th 2023 at 8:57:07 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10153: Nov 6th 2023 at 7:46:22 AM

How about "breaks the arm of Drew's little brother Mikey"? Flows better.

Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#10154: Nov 6th 2023 at 9:48:11 AM

Larry T:As for Sir Arthur, of course I will approve.

Okay, here's another candidate whose possible redemptive trait is worth discussing.

  • Ambassador B'Vat is a bloodthirsty Klingon warrior, who has long since abandoned honor in favor of wanton slaughter. Believing that the Klingon Empire must constantly be at war to survive, B'Vat starts seeking out ways to prolong the new war with the Federation indefinitely. Coming across the Doomsday Machine, B'Vat conducts extensive research on the weapon in order to bring it online and use it to decimate Federation planets and prompt retaliatory attacks, all the while making sure to quash any Klingon dissenters within his own ranks. Willing to bring ruin to both the Federation and his own people with a Forever War, B'Vat stands out as being especially vile for a Starter Villain.

Disgustingness is by no means a problem. The problem is his son. As proposal creator Forgo already noted, B'Wath lost his son in 2389 to the Klingon House Mo'Kai and successfully took revenge. Forgo believes that since he does not mention his son afterwards, it means that he no longer cares about him. But here's the thing. The fact that he doesn't mention or mourn his son on screen doesn't mean he stopped caring about him. We had a bunch of villains who cared about someone and even if they didn't mention them again, no matter how much evil they did or tried to do, it didn't negate their care for someone.

Case in point: Mark Hoffman from Saw. He also avenges his sister and never mentions her again, but does that mean he doesn't care about her anymore? We need direct evidence or logical facts to show that the villain has stopped caring about someone. A striking example? Ronald Taylor from Mass Effect 2. He had the perfect opportunity to check on his son, make sure he was okay and he knew full well how much his son missed him. But he never takes advantage of this, and even when he meets Jacob, not only does he not recognize him at first, but even when does he recognize him? He does not care. He's trying to use Jacob to save his own skin. He doesn't care what Jacob went through, what happened to him, he probably doesn't even care if Jacob dies just to save himself. Ronald is a great example of a villain who once cared about someone, only for him to throw that caring away. Oh, remember also Ego. Neither Hoffman nor B'Wat ever demonstrate anything like this. The only possible catch is that B'Wath's concern for her son happens in the backstory, but what if we almost cut Ronald out because of one message? Then I don't see any problems here.

Personally, I'm all for cut out B'Vat. Another example of a villain who comes very close to being fucking terrible but has one redeeming quality that prevents him from becoming CM. This is not so much a removal as a discussion, because I feel that his care for his son should be discussed in more detail. I brought this up very late and Cr0w agreed and also voted down. Which is good evidence that this needs to be discussed. So decide, the ambassador's concern for his son is enough here, but IMHO, this is something that definitely needs to be discussed. If he stays, okay, no problem. But his concerns need to be discussed.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Nov 6th 2023 at 9:58:42 AM

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#10155: Nov 6th 2023 at 10:13:03 AM

Hey so with the recent Evil Queen write-up, someone went and added this line to Scraggle's initial write-up:

  • Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: The Evil Queen is the very first Disney feature-length villain and one of the most wicked of them all. The Wicked Stepmother of Snow White, the Queen forces her to work as a scullery maid in vain envy of Snow White's beauty, and when her Magic Mirror informs her Snow White is a rival to her title as "fairest in the land", the Queen opts to have her killed. Initially she sends a huntsman to kill her and carve out her heart under penalty of the huntsman's own death, and when this fails, the Queen turns herself into an old hag so she can trick Snow White into eating a poisoned apple, all to curse Snow White with the "Sleeping Death" and trick the seven dwarfs into burying her alive. Hated and feared across the land she rules over, the Queen has no problem with attempting to flatten the dwarfs themselves when they get in her way, and has a dungeon stocked with the bones of her previous victims, among them one poor soul who perished clawing for a jug of water placed just out of reach. Vain, sadistic, and absurdly petty, the Evil Queen would set the stage for every Disney villain to come.

This addition had not been run by the thread, and Scraggle has requested this be removed as it feels tacked on to the rest of the entry and now overshoots the wordlimit.

Whoever added this, just a reminder it's common courtesy not to change other people's writeups without asking them first. So if there's no objections, restoring entry to:

  • Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: The Evil Queen is the very first Disney feature-length villain and one of the most wicked of them all. The Wicked Stepmother of Snow White, the Queen forces her to work as a scullery maid in vain envy of Snow White's beauty, and when her Magic Mirror informs her Snow White is a rival to her title as "fairest in the land", the Queen opts to have her killed. Initially she sends a huntsman to kill her and carve out her heart under penalty of the huntsman's own death, and when this fails, the Queen turns herself into an old hag so she can trick Snow White into eating a poisoned apple, all to curse Snow White with the "Sleeping Death" and trick the seven dwarfs into burying her alive. Hated and feared across the land she rules over, the Queen has no problem with attempting to flatten the dwarfs themselves when they get in her way, and has a dungeon stocked with the bones of her previous victims, among them one poor soul who perished clawing for a jug of water placed just out of reach.

Edited by Snowy66 on Nov 6th 2023 at 10:16:31 AM

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#10156: Nov 6th 2023 at 10:37:29 AM

[up][up] Thank you smile

As for B'Vat, yeah that does sound disqualifying to me.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#10158: Nov 6th 2023 at 10:48:14 AM

Well I only learned B'Vat even had a son from the STO Wiki, since he never once acknowledges his existence in game. My thinking was that the only plausible grudge he could have was against House Mo'Kai. That grudge was resolved, and yet he still wants a viscous Forever War with the Federation by means of using the Doomsday Machine, which he indicates is ultimately for his glory, not that of his house.

Additionally there's a cultural aspect. House Mo'Kai killing B'Vat's son was an affront to B'Vat's honor, and so he could claim the right of vengeance as retribution for their insult against him. It does not require the avenger to actually care about the victim being avenged.

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10159: Nov 6th 2023 at 10:54:13 AM

Will hear more on B’Vat but yeah, restore the Evil Queen’s entry.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10160: Nov 6th 2023 at 11:12:49 AM

Shit, that's my bad on the Queen. I think that was in the Drafts Sandbox when I did my thing, and I didn't even notice it wasn't in the original.

Ghal-Sur Since: Dec, 2021
#10161: Nov 6th 2023 at 11:26:33 AM

Forgo, just because he wants to start a war for glory doesn't mean he stopped caring about his son. This is his motive in the game itself. Just because he took revenge doesn't automatically mean he doesn't care anymore. Just because the game itself doesn't indicate that he has a son, again, doesn't mean it's not important. Two former C Ms were disqualified from the redemptive quality, which in one case was in some kind of additional content, and the other in the secret ending (yes, in the game itself, but still).

However, could you please tell us more about the cultural aspect? How does the game itself (or the wiki itself for that matter) represent this? Because.....,,so he could claim the right of vengeance as retribution for their insult against him." Forgot, the key word is could. The fact that he could avenge himself is again not an option. We need full proof The possibility of another motive is not accepted for CM unless this is confirmed.

KM and MB have always relied on verified information. If the backstory suggests that he could avenge himself, then excuse me, I stand by my “cut.” Compare this with Duke Otto von Braunschweig where both he himself and the story itself make it clear that he is not angry at the death of his nephew himself, but that his ego was hurt. Is there something similar with B'Vat?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10162: Nov 6th 2023 at 11:38:56 AM

Earnestly, barring direct acknowledgement of some of kind of pride thing I'm inclined to side with Ghal. We cut the aforementioned Hoffman due to his sister, we cut Ma-Ma because she cared for a friend who's never mentioned in the film proper and we declined Sewyn even if he seemed to be leveraging his sister's death as a Pretext for War due to the narrative tone playing to no one being 100% evil. This is one to scrutinize imo.

ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#10163: Nov 6th 2023 at 11:50:14 AM

Well as far as I can tell the neither the game, nor the wiki, nor the backstory really go into much detail about it because, again, the son is a bit character who is only mentioned to have died in the backstory, with B'Vat claiming right of vengeance against House Mo'Kai. I honestly can't find indication of genuine care because it's a fair bit removed from the game itself. From what I saw, he claimed the right of vengeance because that was the Klingon thing to do. It never states it was specifically for his son. The only reason I even brought him up was to point out how much of a nonfactor the son was to B'Vat's characterization.

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#10164: Nov 6th 2023 at 11:54:43 AM

Yeah, revert the Queen's entry ASAP, it's also apparently not the first time this user has toyed with write-ups in the drafts without running them by the thread.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10165: Nov 6th 2023 at 12:09:25 PM

Can someone please let me know where the backstory came up? I'm inclined to cut here if it's mentioned in any official context.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10166: Nov 6th 2023 at 12:19:05 PM

Here's the Queen; I decided to go with Vain Sorceress instead of Driven by Envy (the other potholes were too good to be replaced IMO):

  • Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs: The Evil Queen is the very first Disney feature-length villain and one of the most wicked of them all. The Wicked Stepmother of Snow White, the Queen forces her to work as a scullery maid in vain envy of Snow White's beauty, and when her Magic Mirror informs her Snow White is a rival to her title as "fairest in the land", the Queen opts to have Snow White killed. Initially, she sends a huntsman to kill her and carve out her heart under penalty of the huntsman's own death, and when this fails, the Queen turns herself into an old hag so she can trick Snow White into eating a poisoned apple, all to curse Snow White with the "Sleeping Death" and trick the seven dwarfs into burying her alive. Hated and feared across the land she rules over, the Queen has no problem with attempting to flatten the dwarfs themselves when they get in her way, and has a dungeon stocked with the bones of her previous victims, among them one poor soul who perished clawing for a jug of water placed just out of reach.

Everyone cool with this? It's close enough that I think we can go with 8 potholes.

Edited by ACW on Nov 6th 2023 at 3:19:55 PM

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#10167: Nov 6th 2023 at 1:23:47 PM

The Irredeemable Exception is now a wick.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Nov 6th 2023 at 5:24:09 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#10168: Nov 6th 2023 at 2:11:30 PM

Looking over that wiki there's also reference to the character swearing revenge for his brother's death... are we quite certain both instances are either incorrect or can be chalked up to some kind of martial pride? I'm really leaning cut unless these aren't right.

umaprasis Since: Jul, 2023
#10169: Nov 6th 2023 at 4:00:30 PM

I have a question about the Brawl version of Ganondorf that him being too vague with him maybe caring about master hand and not betraying the heroes.

The thing is that brawl dojo the site that was down while the cut was going is back up with it being said that he was going to betray Master hand with Peach going out her way to check if Master hand was okay and I question if Ganondorf would suddenly care about the person he was planning on overthrowing on top of Smash being a world where everyone.

And about no betraying the heroes, Ganondorf while turned into a statue for backstabbing Bowser was given a smack down, and every one who was on his side and his whole army is gone so way would he betray the heroes when the cards are against him and in Smash 4 Pit who was in Subspace treats Ganondorf like some evil dude not some ally like he treats Mario with no friendship between them.

Unless him not counting has to do with him being a spirit in SSBU is a problem I ask if there is a issue with him counting?

Edited by umaprasis on Nov 6th 2023 at 4:11:41 AM

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#10170: Nov 6th 2023 at 4:45:03 PM

One of the reasons he was rejected was his crimes in Brawl being extrapolated.

IPP Wick Check created.
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#10171: Nov 6th 2023 at 7:22:01 PM

There may be a slight error with the Dragon Ball page. By the "foldercontrol", it lists the Franchise wise section on the same line rather than underneath on a new line.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/screenshot_20231107_031959_chrome_1.png

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#10172: Nov 6th 2023 at 10:02:18 PM

Huh, strange.

Okay on the sandbox, I put another empty line on inbetween the two markups, that seems to have fixed it for now.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#10173: Nov 7th 2023 at 9:39:03 AM

I have a few edits for Hammerhead from the Insomniac Spider-Man games, emphasizing his brutality and the hoarding of humanitarian supplies to make him stand out more next to all the new villains.

  • Hammerhead is a sadistic Maggia don who yearns for the "good old days" when mobsters like him ruled New York City with an iron fist, and the police knew to look the other way. When Sable International leaves their technology behind after the Devil's Breath incident, Hammerhead arms his men with as much as he can find—subsequently hoarding humanitarian supplies desperately needed by the war-torn country of Symkaria—and tears up the streets of New York with a brutal gang war against the other crime families so he can seize power, while attempting to have countless civilians killed through car bombings, assaults on witnesses and police escorts, and assassinations conducted by particularly brutal hitmen. When Spider-Man and Yuri Watanabe attempt to stop him, he provokes Yuri into shooting him by massacring numerous cops before having other crime bosses slowly drowned in cement, trying to broadcast their deaths across the city. When that fails, he goes into hiding and has himself converted into a cyborg using the dangerous Project Olympus armor, forcing an Oscorp scientist to upgrade his men as well without care to the many that die from the procedure. When he resurfaces, he tortures Silver Sable with a power drill until she gives him the most dangerous Sable Tech in her arsenal.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10174: Nov 7th 2023 at 9:56:03 AM

I'm fine with those additions.

Question: It would require getting rid of the header, but do we wanna give Moriarty the Patriot its own subsection (similar to Elementary)? There will be 6 examples.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#10175: Nov 7th 2023 at 10:13:42 AM

It could work, but we only have other two Animanga Sherlock keepers from Kibukicho. Maybe folder would work better.

Also [tup] to Hemmerhead aditions.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Nov 7th 2023 at 10:18:03 AM


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