Complete Monster Cleanup

Got it. Will do when I get home.

Shooting Star 7 X.I support it, a very interesting and good idea. Definitely a rewrite Delilah, great job 43110!

Speaking of rewrites, in the spirit of Matthias and the scholars, I've long wanted to suggest expanding Krogan a little, namely adding his extremely cruel deception of Heather. When she gives him the Dragon Eye lens in exchange for saving Windshear, Krogan not only gives her a false key, but also deliberately knocks Windshear's cage into the sea. He knew perfectly well that Heather would rush to save her the dragon and made sure that she was forced to see the slow death of her dragon. In my opinion, this is one of his most brutal actions and a great example, completely supporting Scraggle's claim that Krogan is the most sadistic villain in the franchise. Even Grimmel, with all his psychological “games” and manipulation and subtlety, never went so far as to give hope for the salvation of his dragon, only to destroy it in the most cruel way.

Maybe I'm focusing too much on him and it's just a mean move, but I personally consider this act MEH for Krogan and the moment where any possible honor from Krogan goes out the window. Anyway, I decided to suggest it and see what others thought. Any opinions are welcome. Just a little addition.

Krogan is the leader of the Dragon Flyers and second-in-command to Drago Bludvist himself, having been right there at his master's side when he massacred the chieftains of the archipelago. The one whom Drago has entrusted with capturing a Bewilderbeast, Krogan allies in a ruthless Big Bad Duumvirate with the Grimborns and later Johann, openly attempting to betray and kill them all at numerous points. Krogan subjects Calder Cay and Wingmaiden Island to brutal attacks, and at one point, Krogan lays waste to Berk, capturing and threatening the populace to cow Stoick into surrender, while attempting to massacre the captured dragons with a ballista for cruel sport. After capturing Heather's dragon and taking the Dragon Eye key from her, Krogan gives a false key and deliberately throws her dragon's cage into the sea with the goal of slowly drowning her, allowing Heather to unsuccessfully rescue her. Easily the cruelest boss in the entire franchise, Krogan kills one of his minions simply for complaining; throws his men dozens at a time to die either in active volcanoes or at the hands of the Bewilderbeast; and at one point vetoes Viggo's option of a quick execution for a failed minion simply for the pleasure of torturing the mook to death himself.

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Oct 25th 2023 at 11:56:01 AM

So, having just cauch up and main TMNT IDW run and checked crossover. There is one I think has to be cut.

• Where When Crossover with Usagi Yojimbo: Dr. Where When—"Lord Dokoitsu"—is a cruel robot from the future, who, after being foiled in conquering the era of the Ninja Turtles, travels through space and time to succeed in Usagi's world instead. Upon learning of the Turtles following him, Where When dispatches the Mogura Ninjas to massacre them alongside the Geishu Clan's army, which claims several lives, including Kitsune's. Where When then unleashes his samurai-themed robots, the samuroids, to kill all the Mogura for their failure and greed before going after the Geishu once again, without regard to anyone else in their path. When his army is stopped in their tracks by Yukichi's self-sacrifice, Where When chooses to return to the future and spitefully leave the Turtles permanently trapped in Usagi's Feudal Japan.

So guy tries to massacre and army and has own army massacred, which yeah it is nasty. Problem, it dosen’t give enought of details to his take over world plot and takes place in main IDW continuity form what I have checked. It is played as standard Take Over the World plot and Honestly I don’t think it is bad enought even for Usagi.

As points of reference some of other guys for TMNT side who are compareble to him in resources are:

• Agent Bishop, who tries to massacre all Utroms and Triceratons on Burrow island (including turning innocent mutant he mind controled into a nuke) and to kill huge crowd of mutants who were human just few second ago, plus some nasty Kick the Dog moments.
• Colonel Ch’rell, who orders mutant town massacred and plans to take Utroms into explicidly bloody war with Earth.
• plus guys lower from him like Baxter and Leatherhead (if we take fact that Where When seems to have just his own robot minions) who also get into nasty Mass murder plot (Baxter normally does have influence and resources, but his Mass murder attempt was tried when he was Krang’s Prisoner and had to make on his own brain and what technology he can get his hands on) and ones like Barlow with his utterly nightmaris experiments.

If crossover was non canon or we got imagine spot or big speed that would give more details to his take over the world scheme, I would be fine, I am villing to give him some leway when it comes to generally rare destroy the world villains since they are either deities or space warlords. But as it stands even with fact that he was just one guy with technology, he still build and army and has technology centuries ahead of feudal world.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 24th 2023 at 4:26:06 AM

To Krogan’s rewrite, one suggestion maybe pothole The Dragon (no pun intended) where it says second-in-command?

As for Lord Dokoitsu I will differ to someone who knows the work better than me.

Edited by LarryT on Oct 24th 2023 at 6:27:12 AM

I don't mind the addition to Krogan. Cut Wherewhen.

This is a weird case, but the page for Huarochiri Manuscript doesn't have any tropes on its main page whatsover, it's only trope is a Monster on its YMMV. While I think this monster entry is valid itself, I'm curious if pages are allowed to have no other tropes other than monster.

Addition works; cut Where When if that's the case; Technically there's a main page for that work now but it should have at least three tropes to be allowed to stay. If the main page is cut then the YMMV one isn't allowed per site rules. If your question's just about the YMMV itself then there's no issue with a Monster entry being the only trope as long as the former condition's met.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 24th 2023 at 10:40:47 AM

Yeah no it's not about the YMMV itself, its about how the main page has no tropes whatsoever.

Suggested these rewrites months back which were approved but they never got moved. Posting them here as I add them to the drafts:

• Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet's "Altar of a Rare Beauty": Aleria is Linaria's vicious eldest sister who persecutes Linaria on the basis of her religion to claim their father's fleet the latter inherited. Having her other sisters hunt down Linaria, Aleria orders them to massacre all onboard the freighter carrying Linaria, who wound up being the Sole Survivor. Luring the Hideauze forces with a series of seabed mines, Aleria tries to use the mass death to take Kugel's fleet and upon learning of Linaria's death, smirks and swiftly tries to take command of her dead sister's forces.
• Jinki:Extend: Kalis/Karis Nohman is a monstrous misogynist in both versions:
  • Anime: Kalis Nohman introduces himself disguised as the young Satsuki Kawamoto's older brother, using the chance to get close to Satsuki where he brutalizes and rapes her. Confronted by the Angel team, Kalis tries to flee while keeping Satsuki as his Sex Slave, fondling her throughout the fight and ultimately leaving the girl scarred long after he is dealt with.
  • Manga: Kalis Nohman is employed by Shiva for the purpose of breaking Angel pilots and basks in the chance to rape one into a mental breakdown. When his victim refuses to scream as he defiles her, Kalis flies into a rage and begins cutting her with his scythe, attempting to kill the rest of the Angel team when they interfere. Reappearing to attempt to assault Satsuki Kawamoto, when repelled Kalis returns once more, trying to use his craft to subject the entire female cast to his violation.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 25th 2023 at 2:02:00 PM

Can't believe what I am doing, but I must give you to reconsider my own CM candidate Prometheus from the Star Siege franchise to clean up, because there are some plots that may give him some chance that you guys might no longer consider him good CM - the information I didn't include in my CM candidate draft. Don't get me wrong, I still think Prometheus is pretty awfull piece of junk and IMO IT should stay, but someone of you may have another opinion. First of all, from Cybrids perspective, Prometheus is called [Giver Of Will//Fist Thought] because it gave Cybrid machines the true free will. IMO this point is moot, first because it was pragmatic move to make Cybrids more effective in fighting humans, and second - because Prometheus kill or rewrite memory of any Cybrid that turns from its goals of eradicating humanity. Second info is that Prometheus, while trying to wipe humanity for a realy petty and insane reason, actualy DID agree to spare few humans called The Distopian Snowmen, with a condition that they will go voluntary Brain Uploading and help the Cybrids with wiping the rest of humanity. It reasoned that due to their love of technology Dystopian Snowmen evolved more than their brethren and are worthy of joining the ranks of the Cybrids. This voliate a bit a CM rule to "not holding itself in evil", as more evil course of action would be just fake the agreement and kill them all. IMO this is too minor and, as made only for pragmatic reasons, not a good excuse, and the same argument can be made against SHODAN and Edward Diego case (SYSTEM SHOCK), but for honesty's sake I must add this into your consideration.

I say Prometheus should stay, but its up to you. Also I request for opinion from people who know the Star Siege/Tribes setting at least on most basic level.

Edited by Evil_Azgoul on Oct 25th 2023 at 9:01:06 PM

Yeah, sounds like Prometheus is okay. As you said he has no problem taking free will from Cybrids who go against him, and accepting The Distopian Snowmen sounds like simple pragmatism.

to Gargantia and Jinki rewrites.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 25th 2023 at 11:25:22 AM

Cut where when

43 rewrites

Cut to Where-When/Lord Dokoitsu. Great find Emperor Geode and rewrite of 43110. Prometheus seems to be okay. Good analysis by Evil_Azgoul!

Larry T, Emerald Emperor and 43110:Thank you very much for your opinion.

Larry T: I don't think anyone minds. Highlights his importance as the right-hand man of the infamous Drago Bludvist. Thanks for the idea.

I really appreciate it. Thanks again

Edited by Ghal-Sur on Oct 26th 2023 at 1:22:35 AM

Happy to help

Okay, first draft for the Chrono Trigger: The Musical entry:

Original:

• Lavos, unlike in the game where he's an ineffable Eldritch Abomination, here is both sapient and actively malevolent. Lavos is an alien who caused a mass extinction event when he arrived on Earth, and began farming humans to devour them and all other life. On the Day of Lavos, he surfaces, causing an earthquake as he does so and upon getting there, he launches a "Rain of Spears" attack to carpet bomb the planet. Hellbent on destroying all life, Lavos proves himself the worst of all the musical's monsters.

Rewrite (first draft):

• Lavos is an alien that came to the planet in prehistoric times with a devastating fiery impact, resulting in a mass extinction where the Reptites died out and humans were forced to endure a long and cruel ice age. After burrowing into the core of the planet, the slumbering Lavos would proceed to spend millions of years feasting off the planet's energy to empower itself, while manipulating the evolution of the planet's inhabitants to steal whatever DNA it found useful. Following a brief awakening in 12,000 B.C. when it destroyed the magical Kingdom of Zeal for harnessing its power, Lavos would fully emerge on the "Day of Lavos" in 1999 A.D., using a rain of flaming needles to carpet-bomb the planet— singing about the pleasure it was taking from the suffering and deaths of its inhabitants all the while— resulting in a Bad Future where the planet would be left a dying husk and Lavos would be free to send its spawn out to insidiously harvest more worlds throughout the cosmos. Crono and his friends' time-traveling journey to prevent this future has them encounter Lavos at the Kingdom of Zeal, and when Crono defiantly stands against Lavos' vicious assault, Lavos obliterates Crono in response. Revealed in the final battle to be viewing itself as entitled to the entire planet and viewing humans as mere "cattle" to be slaughtered, Lavos is portrayed as having far more explicit sapience than it did in the original game, while being no less full of hatred and malice.

Thoughts?

I think we can just revise the bit implying Lavos doesn't count in the original. I'm not a big fan of the detail when the original gets the point across succinctly.

Edit: What's wrong with "Lavos, like in the game, is a sapient, actively malevolent Eldritch Abomination..."?

Edited by 43110 on Oct 26th 2023 at 11:43:41 AM

I said a while ago that I felt some of the language of the original was too generic, along with how the original was written before the musical itself was actually finished. Good point, though. I'll see if I can mix the original and the first draft into something shorter.

Edited by BlurryDawgo on Oct 26th 2023 at 4:54:29 PM

I'm fine with expanding it to include its other crimes but "the language is too generic" isn't really a great reason for such a big entry.

So fun fact Willy's Wonderland had a prequel comic which has some stuff I feel is worth adding to Jerry's entry.

Old

• Willy's Wonderland: Jerry Robert Willis was the owner and founder of Willy's Wonderland, using the entertainment center to mask the fact that he was one of the 20th century's most twisted, sadistic serial killers. Working with his depraved staff, Willis would butcher and cannibalize entire families for years, eventually committing suicide in a Satanic ritual that transferred the souls of Willis and his employees into the animatronics populating Willy's Wonderland. Becoming "Willy Weasel", Willis continued to kill children and even slaughter his way through Hayesville's schools and shops before striking a deal with Sheriff Lund to spare Hayesville in exchange for regular sacrifices. With a body count unfathomable and a lack of care for his fellow killers, Willis spends the film having a group of teenagers picked off one by one before bisecting Lund herself for failing him.

• Willy's Wonderland: Jerry Robert Willis was the owner and founder of Willy's Wonderland, using the entertainment center to mask the fact that he was one of the 20th century's most twisted, sadistic serial killers. Originally a serial killer who butchered 4 families, Willis recruited other murderers at a mental asylum before staging a breakout that saw the entire staff slaughtered. Working with his depraved staff, Willis would butcher and cannibalize entire families for years, eventually committing suicide in a Satanic ritual that transferred the souls of Willis and his employees into the animatronics populating Willy's Wonderland. Becoming "Willy Weasel", Willis continued to kill children and even slaughter his way through Hayesville's schools and shops before striking a deal with Sheriff Lund to spare Hayesville in exchange for regular sacrifices. With a body count unfathomable and a lack of care for his fellow killers, Willis spends the film having a group of teenagers picked off one by one before bisecting Lund herself for failing him.

Yes, I understand that. It was mostly a personal choice of mine that I admit I may have gone too far with. That said, I have realized an issue with using "like in the game" in the write-up, however— the moment used to determine whether or not Lavos is sapient comes from Chrono Cross rather than Trigger (when the cast communicate with the Time Devourer through the Frozen Flame), and I don't think musical!Lavos took any influence from that. MOTI doesn't like Chrono Cross and the musical prefers not to allude to it. No case of Dalton destroying Guardia, no Dream Devourer, nothing. Maybe it'll be best to just get rid of that first sentence altogether and not compare Lavos to its canon counterpart in the write-up. I'll be back with that change soon.

As for Willy's Wonderland… yeah, never heard of it, but I think what you got is all right.

It’s been a while since I’ve been on this thread. Is it okay to post a potential rewrite?

It's not an issue... he's a CM in both versions, game canon and the musical.

Also prefer The original lavos write up.

Yes to the Jerry/Willie rewrite. About Lavos, that's what 43110 said, but good job anyway Blurry Dawgo.

Certainly.

Chrono Trigger: The Musical, take two.

Also made sure to double-check whether "Rain of Spears" was a term used in either the musical or the original game, and… evidence points to no. "Rain of Destruction" seems to be what the Chrono Compendium said it was called, but I feel like it'd be better if we just went with "a rain of fiery spears" for easier reading. Language changes are also relatively minor this time, and the rewrite is shorter this time around. "Brevity is the soul of wit" and all that.

Original:

• Lavos, unlike in the game where he's an ineffable Eldritch Abomination, here is both sapient and actively malevolent. Lavos is an alien who caused a mass extinction event when he arrived on Earth, and began farming humans to devour them and all other life. On the Day of Lavos, he surfaces, causing an earthquake as he does so and upon getting there, he launches a "Rain of Spears" attack to carpet bomb the planet. Hellbent on destroying all life, Lavos proves himself the worst of all the musical's monsters.

Rewrite (second draft):

• Lavos is an alien that caused a mass extinction event when it first arrived on the planet, and spent millions of years farming humans like cattle to devour them and all other life. On the Day of Lavos in 1999 A.D., Lavos would break through the surface of the planet, causing an earthquake as it did so, and carpet bomb the planet with a rain of fiery spears. When faced with Crono and his friends traveling through time on a quest to foil its plans, Lavos obliterates Crono for daring to stand against it. Hellbent on destroying all life and openly taking pleasure in the suffering of others, Lavos proves itself the worst of all the musical's monsters.

Honestly, I like this one better as well. Need to stop fixating on details too much.

Great job Blurry Dawgo! This option is much better. And no details are very important. They are always important, sometimes everything depends on them. But specifically here they do not play a big role.

And sorry, but can anyone have more opinions on Alduin's quote and is anyone against adding Galder's review? Only 43,110 commented on Alduin's quote. And the problem is not that it overlaps, Drago's quote also fits perfectly under Ax-Crazy and The Sociopath. The problem is that it doesn't have the CM atmosphere. It’s just, “I will have your soul and my belly is full of the souls of others.” That’s all. Let’s say, no “agony,” screams of pain or anything else vile. There is simply no spirit of CM here, and even quotes such as Grima or about John Dee contained elements of CM, “Wings of despair or devoid of all humanity.” Alduin doesn’t even have that.

Regarding Galdera, here is another example of Eredin from The Witcher. On the page itself for Monsters, he is at the top and simply states that he is under the entire franchise, which is correct. But in YMMV, his review is in Part 3, because it is thanks to it that he is a CM (honestly, even according to the updated GDV rules, he has enough personality in the Wild Hunt, 12 lines, which is much more than John Dee from Nioh).

Zobek, Eredin, Prima Makula and Galder, the thing with him is that although in the page for Monsters either for their works separately or for the media from where they are, although they will simply be listed in general, indicating that given all the crimes from all the works , where they appeared and performed, then in relation to YMMV we always gave a review of exactly that part, which was what their CM did first of all. Zobek for the first part of the Lords of Shadows, Makula for Requiem, Eredin for part 3. I don’t think there will be any problems if we put Galder in the second part in YMMV.