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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#8801: Aug 19th 2023 at 4:54:46 AM

[up] Rewrite looks good

All right controversial cut, Iago from Othello I know he’s an iconic character but after a lot of thinking I don’t think he counts here’s the entry

Honest Iago is one of the most famous examples of this trope to ever appear on the English stage. A bitter Venetian officer who resents the promotion of another man over him by his commander, the Moor Othello, Iago schemes for revenge by ingratiating himself with Othello and driving him to madness with insinuations his beloved wife Desdemona is having an affair with the officer Michael Cassio. Iago undermines Othello while acting as his friend. Iago murders his accomplice Roderigo and his own wife Emilia to cover for himself, and at the end, convinces Othello to murder Desdemona. At the end, Iago displays no remorse and refuses to speak one word more in his whole life. Throughout the play, Iago has various motives proposed for his evil—racism; envy; suspicion that Othello is sleeping with Emilia—but concludes he has no reason behind his cruelties beyond the fact that he simply enjoys them.

So basically his crimes consist of killing three people and acting like a dick to everyone which I think is why we disqualified Barkis from Corpse Bride. Yes he’s an absolutely racist, petty, sadistic jerk and a great villain but I don’t think he is bad enough for this trope. Plus the Bastard from King Lear is way worse with similar resources.

So I think he’s a cut but what do you all think

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#8802: Aug 19th 2023 at 4:58:05 AM

For the king comparison I don't think Shakespeare has any shared works and so they don't share a heinous standard.

As for if he passes the baseline standard I think people have mentioned how he not only killed those people but how he made sure to utterly ruin them as well is what pushes him over

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#8803: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:14:53 AM

[up] I think we do compare works by the same author if the works have a similar theme or genre

So how exactly does he ruin their lives?

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#8804: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:34:35 AM

Shakespeare's works don't share a heinous standard because they don't take place in the same universe.

I was actually wondering about whether he passes baseline or not for a long time because he has only 3 successful murders + 1 attempted murder on Michael which fails. However, he does employ some cruel manipulations on Othello to make him believe that his wife Desdemona is unfaithful to him and convinces him to murder her and after Othello murders her and Iago's wife reveals she had actually been faithful to him, he is utterly devastated. Iago also manipulates Roderigo into thinking that he can win Desdemona's affection by following Iago's instructions and even tells him to commit an assassination on Michael. Plus, this play is from a different time period where the heinous standard was lower.

I feel he is one of those cases that are just on the edge, but even if he keeps, I think he should be rewritten because the current entry doesn't mention his failed assassination attempt on a 4th man (which is important for a villain which such a short rapsheet) and also makes it sound like Desdemona's death happens after he has already murdered his own wife which is not true.

Edited by WatTambor on Aug 19th 2023 at 4:02:28 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8805: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:34:56 AM

Yeah, I think Iago's fine due to the type of work and the time it was written.

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#8806: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:38:10 AM

[up][up]All right you’ve convinced me he counts, also agree that he needs a rewrite.

Edited by LarryT on Aug 19th 2023 at 5:38:37 AM

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#8807: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:44:41 AM

[up] I will try to rewrite him once I get home.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8808: Aug 19th 2023 at 6:18:47 AM

I think he keeps and doesn’t need a rewrite. Iago is a product of the time he was written and the write up does a good enough job of transmitting the way he ruins lives along the way for his pointless vengeance. The entry is fine and this is a hill I’m willing to die on

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#8809: Aug 19th 2023 at 7:04:44 AM

[up] At the very least, we should remove "at the end" from "at the end, convinces Othello to murder Desdemona" because it implies this is the last crime he has done in the story. Which is not true because him convincing Othello to kill Desdemona actually happens before his murder of his partner and also before his murder of his wife, but with the "at the end" part it looks like he convinced Othello to murder Desdemona after he has already killed his partner and has murdered his own wife especially since it's listed after these two.

It's a small thing, but it's still factually incorrect.

[down][down] Alright, I agree with that.

Edited by WatTambor on Aug 19th 2023 at 6:13:14 PM

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8811: Aug 19th 2023 at 8:06:00 AM

Then just change "At the end" to "In the end". The phrase "in the end" doesn't necessarily imply anything regarding the chronology of events, just that by the end of the story, a certain event happened at some point. It's less specific than "At" and fixes the inaccuracy without requiring a full rewrite.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#8812: Aug 19th 2023 at 8:09:44 AM

I know this entry was approved since it's on Lupin III but this entry is really, really short, and sparse on details, can anyone expand it

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8813: Aug 19th 2023 at 8:12:27 AM

I've seen the movie as well and that's basically it. The World War III thing is depicted visually enough that it pushes him over, but it's all he's got.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#8814: Aug 19th 2023 at 8:13:40 AM

How does he plan on starting the WWIII?

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
BlackFaithStar [Hiatus til March] from 🇲🇾 (UTC plus 8) (Less Newbie) Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
[Hiatus til March]
#8815: Aug 19th 2023 at 9:24:24 AM

I'd like to suggest a rewrite to the entry of Retak'ka from BoBoiBoy Movie 2, as I've been rewatching it to make an individual page for the movie and I realise an error in the information.

This is the current entry:

  • Complete Monster: Retak'ka was the previous wielder of the Elemental Powers. Retak'ka was once a normal alien before getting the elemental powers and desiring more and more power. Retak'ka betrayed his friend Hang Kasa and attempted to steal his part of the elemental powers before being sealed away. He wakes up a hundred years later and attacks the TAPOPS to find BoBoiBoy, who now has the elemental powers. Retak'ka tortures Koko Ci to get him to reveal BoBoiBoy's location until BoBoiBoy shows up and quickly retreats after Retak'ka easily beats him. Retak'ka then orders for the TAPOPS to be blown up, killing all but 6 on board. Retak'ka travels from planet to planet to absorb their elemental powers, destroying each planet in the process, with him first heading to Planet Gur'latan, where he massacres an entire army, leaving nobody alive. Retak'ka captures Yaya, Ying, and Fang, and threatens to kill them if Hang Kasa does not come to him. He gets into a fight with Hang Kasa and ends up seemingly killing him, with Hang Kasa barely surviving, and once he is defeated by BoBoiBoy attempts to kill all the heroes out of spite by destroying a dam.

My issues with the current:

  • Retak'ka does capture Yaya, Ying and Fang, but he never said he would kill them. All he did was tell Hang Kasa to come to Earth if he wants to stop him because it is a planet that possesses all the elements he wants, as he learned from the humans he captured. Timestamp of Retak'ka's message.
  • Not as major as the above, but it's unclear how many survived the destruction of the TAPOPS station, as some were rescued by Kaizo in time before the explosion that Retak'ka ordered. The 6 note  that survived in the current entry doesn't account for other members that Kaizo also protected with energy shields, as seen here (timestamp).

My proposed rewrite, with a bit of trimming and sentence structure rearranging:

  • Complete Monster: Retak'ka was the previous wielder of the Elemental Powers, who was once a normal alien before desiring more and more power. Retak'ka betrayed his friend Hang Kasa and attempted to steal his part of the elemental powers before being sealed away. He wakes up 100 years later and attacks the TAPOPS to find BoBoiBoy, who now has the elemental powers. Retak'ka tortures Koko Ci to get him to reveal BoBoiBoy's location until BoBoiBoy shows up. After the hero quickly retreats, Retak'ka orders for the TAPOPS to be blown up. Retak'ka travels from planet to planet to absorb their elemental powers, destroying each planet in the process. He first heads to Planet Gur'latan, where he massacres an entire army, leaving nobody alive. He gets into a fight with Hang Kasa and ends up seemingly killing him, and once he is defeated by BoBoiBoy, he attempts to kill all the heroes out of spite by destroying a dam.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do to improve this.

A related question: if I make individual pages for each movie (which thus get their own YMMV pages), do I remove them from YMMV.Bo Boi Boy?
(Note: I will respond some time later since I'm off to bed now)

[down]Noted, thank you.

Edited by BlackFaithStar on Aug 20th 2023 at 7:01:25 PM

When you're alone I'm reaching out to let you know that you're far from strangers, like the savior
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8816: Aug 19th 2023 at 9:27:26 AM

To answer your last question: Yes probably, but it may not hurt to list the YMMV pages at the main YMMV page.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#8817: Aug 19th 2023 at 10:09:56 AM

I don't think Iago needs a rewrite

Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#8818: Aug 19th 2023 at 11:37:38 AM

I think The High Evolutionary's entry may need a minor correction. It makes it sound like he intentionally destroyed his own ship to kill the Guardians, but from my understanding he accidentally took out the controls in the process of killing the mutinying crew members. He just doesn't care when he realizes, as he tells the remaining crew to prioritize finding Rocket rather than abandon ship.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#8819: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:27:45 PM

I am staunchly opposed to cutting one of the most single prominent representations of pure evil in all of the Western canon for heinous standard reasons when Iago's murders (including of his own wife) and an entire play of gaslighting and mentally breaking Othello to murder his own beloved wife out of nothing more than spite are played as exceptionally monstrous.

This isn't comparable to a guy with one murder from a film that came out in 2005

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 19th 2023 at 5:28:35 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#8820: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:35:22 PM

Keep Iago. No question.

Also having seen Voysge to Danger, I can back STAR’s claims of Klause doing the bare minimum to earn his CM status. Dude basically wants to sell enough weapons to start a war, and we see visions of how his war will ruin the world.

It's Spooky Month!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#8821: Aug 19th 2023 at 5:39:26 PM

I don't think Iago needs to be rewritten. Likewise with Klause. The only extra thing we could add is "tries to kill the heroes."

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#8822: Aug 19th 2023 at 6:10:25 PM

Agreed, Iago is one of the Ur-Example of this trope. The baseline is relative to the time a work came out, and for a work written in the 1600s, his evil is a standout compared to everyone else.

His current write up honestly looks very well written IMO, conveying everything in almost the same poetic way Shakespeare does.

Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 19th 2023 at 6:10:37 AM

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#8823: Aug 19th 2023 at 7:35:02 PM

Can we not continue to reiterate why Iago keeps when everyone, including the person who asked in the first place, agrees that he does? Unless anyone else wants to challenge it or tweak the writeup, we should move along.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8824: Aug 19th 2023 at 7:42:45 PM

I mean, it was an outright cut proposal, not just a rewrite proposal, so people are voting on it and explaining why. This happens all the time and no one’s been rude about it so far IMO

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#8825: Aug 19th 2023 at 8:05:17 PM

Yeah. Everyone had been civil when stating their reasons.


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