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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8251: Jul 31st 2023 at 11:11:40 AM

Appreciated smile

FWIW, looks like Kindred: The Embraced' is an adaptation of Vampire'', so I dunno if you wanna slot it under Old World or not.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8252: Jul 31st 2023 at 11:36:45 AM

[up] I don't know anything about that franchise, so I'll leave that up to the people who do.

Alrighty, here's what I've got:

    Pages I would change 
    Changes I want to discuss 
    Pages that look fine 

What do we think?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 31st 2023 at 2:49:02 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#8253: Jul 31st 2023 at 11:41:34 AM

Uh Midsomer only has 8. And it's really, really unlikely the show will produce a new one. So I'd leave it as.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8254: Jul 31st 2023 at 11:42:14 AM

For Bill and Midsomer, might not hurt. Or at least have them in groups of, I dunno, 3-5.

Other changes seem fine, though what's wrong with the current Criminal Minds format?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8255: Jul 31st 2023 at 11:43:51 AM

Nothing's necessarily wrong, it's just that pushing the format back so that the folder titles are AC headers instead would bring the format similar to a lot of other pages we've changed in the same manner recently

I won't say anything on Midsomer but at least for Bill, it's easy to group them in seasons of 10 (so seasons 1-10, 11-20, 20-which season the show ended on)

[down] Noted on the sandboxes, thanks!

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 31st 2023 at 2:49:12 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8256: Jul 31st 2023 at 11:45:53 AM

Ah, so more for standardization purposes? Eh, I like the current format, but won't fall on my sword for it.

I created the AHS and Criminal Minds sandboxes BTW.

EDIT: I think I fixed the crossover issue. I think the apostrophe before the S was throwing things off.

EDIT: Speaking of L&O, I either wanna folderize the Chicago PD example (even though it's only 1) or keep the crossovers unfolderized; it seems weird to just have one section unfolderized, and not even be the last section. That's just me though.

Edited by ACW on Jul 31st 2023 at 2:52:38 PM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#8258: Jul 31st 2023 at 3:36:30 PM

I was checking Monster.Marvel Comics. where's seth in the Thor tree ?

He should be in between Surtur and Malekith.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8259: Jul 31st 2023 at 3:38:41 PM

Yeah, that's where he is:

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/screen_shot_2023_07_31_at_63735_pm_5.png

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 31st 2023 at 6:39:58 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#8260: Jul 31st 2023 at 3:41:06 PM

Huh. Weird system must have been strange. I refreshed cache and now it's showing.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#8261: Jul 31st 2023 at 3:47:46 PM

W: I don't see why we shouldn't folderize one example, given that on other tropes with one example in a given medium, we already do folderize that example.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8262: Jul 31st 2023 at 3:49:44 PM

That’s… not accurate at all. We only folder in a section if it has two or more examples

[down] Yep, just saw that, my bad

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 31st 2023 at 6:53:06 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#8263: Jul 31st 2023 at 3:50:37 PM

They're talking about on regular trope pages, not CM pages.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Draxterrus An Eldritch Troper Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
An Eldritch Troper
#8264: Jul 31st 2023 at 10:02:12 PM

Can we keep AC headers off Monster The Bill & Monster Midsomer Murders until we get enough entries on both pages for folderization? (So they look something like Monster Silent Witness)

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#8265: Aug 1st 2023 at 3:20:49 AM

Zanza was cut then re-added years ago for that exact reason, since it was pointed out that the game never actually said he was Made of Evil now, people just assumed that

I actually keep wondering whether I should add a Common Knowledge entry for this, because I keep seeing it mentioned around the wiki, even though there's literally nothing in the game to support it and some strong implications against.

TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#8266: Aug 1st 2023 at 3:42:00 AM

[up] Agreed. It's pure misconception. I just rewatched the cutscene where Klaus's split is explained recently, and it never actually states that Zanza is pure evil. Meanwhile the "good" half is demonstrably not pure good, he's well-meaning but seriously flawed.

Edited by TheGrayFox on Aug 1st 2023 at 3:42:15 AM

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#8267: Aug 1st 2023 at 9:51:47 AM

Ok, time for me to discuss an approved CM I have recently had doubts about.

  • Forces: Infinite is the high commander in the Eggman Empire and the primary reason behind the flawless conquest of Earth. Because of his position and power, Infinite took full part in the iron-fisted domination of 99.9% of the world, gleefully eliminating opposition, heroic or civilian, directly or by proxy through his illusions of Shadow, Chaos, Zavok, and Metal Sonic. He makes his introduction beating Sonic into unconsciousness for him to be imprisoned for six months. In the interlude, Infinite murders the Avatar's helpless friends, only sparing the Avatar so Infinite could relish their fear. He's put Omega out of commission from an early point to the finale; tried to kill Silver thanks to his love for ending heroes and instilling despair; and repeatedly tried to kill Sonic after his escape, only to not go through with it when Sonic is deemed not worth the effort. When the Resistance tried a full-scale assault on Metropolis, Infinite uses the Phantom Ruby to reduce them to even greater shambles. Later, he and Eggman try to trap Sonic in "null space", a void of eternal nothingness, to live out the rest of his days. At the climax, Infinite conjures a virtual sun to drop and burn everyone to death. A raving lunatic of a sadist, Infinite envisioned omnicidal designs even as a lowly thief and stands out for the reasons behind his sadism and hatred for weakness.

Now for me to get in my issues it is important to establish something. The Sonic IDW comics have been confirmed to be canon. This has been hinted at for awhile given how closely tied to the games the comics have been, Frontiers referenceing the Eggnet and Tangle(an IDW exclusive character), and Ian Flynn making comments alluding to it being canon. However Recently the official Sonic Loremasters (yes it is a job at Sega to be in charge of the lore of Sonic and have a final say in what is or isn’t canon) officially confirmed that IDW is canon and takes place directly after Forces https://twitter.com/persontheperso2/status/1674544756674764802?s=46&t=M-PCdHmT1xMbZXReWzSl5A

Now what does this have to with Infinite? Well with IDW being canon I concered with Infinite being Heinous enough given there are two villains with lower resources in the comics that do worse than him. Dr Starline who brought Eggman back by torturing his Amnesiac self making him responsible for the Metal Virus which he happily assist in( which is treated as a Fate Worse than death?) plus other horrid crimes he did on his own such as trying to kill hundreds of innocents and the horrible thing he put Surge and Kit through which left them with psychological Trauma. Zavok who on top of him trying to destroy the planet my slowly draining the life force from the planet literally hijacks the Metal virus to infect and destroy the world and put it in FWTD, plus just trying to destroy the world the old fashioned way.

The main argument for Infinite being bad enough was him having lower resources and his method of destroying world being brutal. However I would like to question the idea his resources are even that low in the first place. He has the Phantom Ruby which can create illusions of anything (which do hurt others so they might as well be real) he can create armies of past foes if Sonic(including Zavok) and even summon a sun to destroy the world with. His resources aren’t low by any stretch of the imagination given how powerful the phantom ruby is. Zavok and and Starline don’t have a gem that can casually summon armies or just change perspection of reality itself yet the Metal Virus is much more painful and torturous a way to destroy the works then the sun because it has essentially FWTD.

So with that in mind so we still feel he keeps? I can still see an argument for him mainly his sadism and the fact he is only in one game but I am not sure that’s enough.

JoeBertInc (Pilot) Relationship Status: Abstaining
#8268: Aug 1st 2023 at 10:05:36 AM

Quick question, is it allowed to repropose a former CM? Because I feel I might've overlooked someone that I got removed.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#8269: Aug 1st 2023 at 10:10:21 AM

[up] You put that on the Complete Monster Proposal Thread. But yes, if you have new information/initially missed content on the character, it is acceptable to re-propose characters

"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#8270: Aug 1st 2023 at 12:00:51 PM

Not having played the game or read the comic, that's concerning for Infinite. Either of those comic baddies count?

YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#8271: Aug 1st 2023 at 12:05:16 PM

Starline was brought up for CM before but got shot down due to still respecting Eggman even when trying to overthrow him. And Zavok cares for his pack plus has respect for Sonic’s resolve. So they don’t count as CM

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#8272: Aug 1st 2023 at 12:23:54 PM

Okay, so, I didn’t wanna make anything because I can’t access any clips because the show sucked that hard lol, but since i watched the show I think l should at least go with the candidate I more concern on

  • The Mist: Adrian Garff is a narcissistic psychopath who hides his true self behind a mask of friendliness. Having grown obsessed with Alex Copeland and jealous of her friendship with Jay, Adrian raped her and framed Jay so as to keep her all for himself. After returning to his home during the chaos, Adrian kills his own father after blaming him for all of his own actions, cuts himself to make it look like self-defense, then attacks and concusses Kevin when he learns the truth. Lying to everyone that his father killed Kevin, Adrian reunites with Eve and Alex in the mall, manipulating them into serving his delusional idea of a family and brutally beating up Jay to keep up his charade. When Alex and Jay continue interacting anyway, Adrian snaps completely, gathering chemicals in an attempt to burn down the mall and trying to light Kevin on fire to get away from him. Having been a monster all of his life, Adrian's attempts to play the victim only further showcase his endless need for attention.

Okay, so the biggest issue i see with this guy is his mom. In around episode 8 Adrian quiet literally cries when seeing his mom’s corpse, curling up against the couch as he cried near her corpse and getting angry at his dad, thinking he didn’t save her or killed her. While the dad insinuates Adrian abuses his mom I’m not sure if he could really be trusted due to himself being an abusive parent and such, and given the fact he is quite literally crying by the side of her corpse i think to me it’s clear he was at least effected by his mom’s death.

Ansongc2000 Pensive Wright from Serenity Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Hit me with your best shot
Pensive Wright
#8273: Aug 1st 2023 at 12:25:39 PM

If that's true, cut Adrian.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8274: Aug 1st 2023 at 12:27:27 PM

I covered this in the EP, but the affection for his mom disappears basically immediately after his dad claims that she was scared of him too. Yes the abusive dad is also a piece of shit, but between the two of them, I'm inclined to believe the homophobe over the attempted mass-murdering rapist that Adrian proves himself to be. If you need any more proof, by the time he gets back to the mall, he literally has to practice his crying over the situation before he can talk to Alex about it because he's so unaffected. The entire point of that entire reveal is that he's been a sociopath for all of his life and for all he claims to care about people, it's only about how much they love him - once he learns he doesn't have that, he couldn't care less.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 1st 2023 at 3:29:42 PM

MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#8275: Aug 1st 2023 at 12:30:08 PM

I mean, i can’t exactly say him only liking the attention she gives him will lead to him crying against her when seeing her corpse.Like, if he didn’t actually love her, him crying and curling next to her seems strange when seeing her coprse


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