Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright its been a bit so general consensus is remove all of them bar, Degaton, Brainiac and the Preacher one. I'll get to editing in the Sandbox.
Am I alright to start combing through the fanworks folder next?
Also I'm fine with those edits Emerald.
Edited by WetFlannels on Jul 4th 2023 at 3:54:09 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
An Eldritch Troper
Wet can cut whatever quotes need to be cut, but do we need to evaluate the quotes in the work subpages as well (not just the quote subpage)?
Yes to Emerald's rewrites too.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Lizzid people!
I wouldn't think so? The only time I remember us changing a quote was for the MCU when it was decided that the quote about the High Evolutionary exemplified what the trope stood for.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Tbh most of the page quotes are perfectly fine IMO, the only one I think needs changing is the one for Cthulhu Mythos the only bit that says anything CM worthy is the final sentence.
EDIT: Alright comic quotes have been slashed apart from the ones that multiple people said were fine. I'll get to Fan Works in a moment.
Edited by WetFlannels on Jul 4th 2023 at 6:02:48 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I wouldn't be terribly opposed to a new quote for Betrayal at House on the Hill either.
EDIT: For the cuts: I'm fine with the animanga ones (what did we decide about Blade of the Immortal?), but I like Ali Al-Saachez's.
Comic: Besides Degaton, Coltrane's and Brainiac's, I also like I like Kaizen Gamorra's and Karza's (though they MAY be too context-dependent). Definitely keep Carnage's too.
Edited by ACW on Jul 5th 2023 at 7:56:12 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Going over some stuff, apparently MCU Red Skull was the guy behind the Night of Long knives in a tie in comic and I think thats a significant enough crime to add to his write up
Edited by Agentofchaos on Jul 5th 2023 at 8:59:17 AM
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Yeah, we should cut von Luckner
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 5th 2023 at 6:51:15 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wrong thread dude.
Agent: If you can fit it in naturally, go for it.
EDIT 2: Though on a topic for this thread, are we officially cutting Prosit from Blueberry?
Edited by ACW on Jul 5th 2023 at 9:37:26 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I haven't read the comic, so I don't know how to integrate it, it's just that it was brought up on the other thread when Killian was proposed
Lies and Violence!
I’ve been planning a few rewrites and I just skimmed the comic, I can get to it later today.
Just for notes: von Luckner is a prick who kill numerous people to get rich (and in the cruelest act, has a man bitten by a snake dance by shooting at his feet so the venom will spread quicker) but there's like... four guys starting race wars and participating in attempted genocide here.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
I'm fine with you doing that Emerald.
@Lighty sorry but who's Von Luckner?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
An Eldritch Troper
Dude who probably got grandfathered into the trope. He's Prosit, from the Blueberry comic.
Is there any reason to keep Prosit/von Luckner? I don't think he should go simply because he isn't reaching the scale of Lone Eagle or Allister or Steelfingers.
Edited by Draxterrus on Jul 5th 2023 at 10:20:07 PM
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.Cut Luckner, all the other Blueberry guys seem a hell of a lot worse than him
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Not the Eye
Cut Luckner
Red Skull being behind Night of the Long knives sound worth adding.
Showtime!
Cut Luckner
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
chop luckner
Lies and Violence!
Cut Luckner. Time for some MCU tweaks.
First, by request, Red Skull with the Long Knives stuff.
- Captain America: The First Avenger: Johann Schmidt, aka the Red Skull, is a profound narcissist who believes himself a god no longer bound by humanity's rules. The head of HYDRA, a Nazi military organization, Schmidt orchestrated the Night of Long Knives to butcher his political opposition and has turned the group into his own personal cult. He's first introduced killing the guardian of the Tesseract and ordering the entire village where it was hidden wiped out for seemingly no reason. He goes on to betray Hitler and the Nazi party to pursue his own goals and murders the three men sent to check on the status of his research. Schmidt uses the Tesseract to make fantastic new weapons for HYDRA, and has POWs torturously experimented on in order to replicate Dr. Abraham Erskine's Super Serum. Despite their fanatical devotion to Schmidt, he continually shows no concern for the welfare of his men, having them chomp cyanide pills when captured to avoid giving out information on him, executing one merely for surviving an attack on a HYDRA base, and activating the self-destruct sequence at another HYDRA base when the Allied forces overrun it, not caring that hundreds of his troops will be killed in the blast. Schmidt's ultimate plan is to use his new weapons to wipe out half the planet, bombing nearly every major city including his own capital, just so he can rule over what's left.
Second, What If's Red Skull; the original only mentions him risking the destruction of the world, rather than deliberately engineering things so that it will happen should he lose.
- "What If...Captain Carter Were the First Avenger?": The Red Skull faced by Captain Carter is just as evil as his Sacred Timeline counterpart. In this timeline, the Skull seeks global domination not by means of the Tesseract, but by a dimensional portal through which he intends to summon an Eldritch Abomination, risking the annihilation of the entire planet just so he can stand on top and willing to see everything burn should he fail. Along the way, Red Skull indulges in familiar cruelties like gunning down old men and murdering his own allies, thoroughly proving that he has no loyalty to even the Reich.
And finally, Agent Orange from the Punisher. The only other innocents aside from Frank's family caught in the gang shooting was an undercover cop, so I nixed that bit. However, I also added a bit about how his incompetence killed several of his own soldiers.
- Punisher:
- Season 1: William J. "Bill" Rawlins III, aka Agent Orange, is a sadistic CIA agent who was the mastermind of Operation Cerberus in Afghanistan, sending special forces to torture and kill targets while apathetic to any lives lost through incompetent planning. In reality, Rawlins used it to his own benefit, and when an honest Afghan officer named Zubair learned the truth, Rawlins framed, abducted, tortured and murdered him while continuing to enrich himself via heroin smuggling. Upon receiving accolades and a potential promotion to Deputy CIA Director, Rawlins sought to close loose ends by having the remaining Cerberus squad members murdered, and is responsible for orchestrating the mass shootout between several underworld gangs that killed Frank Castle's family
, alongside many other innocents. When he learns that David "Micro" Lieberman, who knew of Zubair's murder, had faked his death, Rawlins kidnaps and tries to murder Micro's wife and children along with him. Upon capturing Castle, Rawlins, his career in tatters, attempts to brutally torture him to death, ranting that Castle, and even Rawlins's own subordinate, Russo, are just "grunts" who exist to serve men like him. A sadist with a god complex, Rawlins stops at nothing to always come out on top and destroy those he can.
- Season 1: William J. "Bill" Rawlins III, aka Agent Orange, is a sadistic CIA agent who was the mastermind of Operation Cerberus in Afghanistan, sending special forces to torture and kill targets while apathetic to any lives lost through incompetent planning. In reality, Rawlins used it to his own benefit, and when an honest Afghan officer named Zubair learned the truth, Rawlins framed, abducted, tortured and murdered him while continuing to enrich himself via heroin smuggling. Upon receiving accolades and a potential promotion to Deputy CIA Director, Rawlins sought to close loose ends by having the remaining Cerberus squad members murdered, and is responsible for orchestrating the mass shootout between several underworld gangs that killed Frank Castle's family
I'll also have a cut coming up soon, though I want to look into something on the MB side of things first.
Like the MCU rewrites
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Does Rawlins's shootout NOT kill other innocents?
EDIT: And that's why I read the whole post 🤦♂️ ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by ACW on Jul 5th 2023 at 6:30:56 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cut Luckner
Cut Luckner
BTW, a thing that's been kind of bothering me: the introductory paragraph/header on Monster.Video Games reads "You're really going to be glad when you defeat these characters in the limitless worlds and possibilities your Video Games hold...unless it's the rare occasion where you're playing as them."
...but hasn't it been concluded that it is very, very unlikely that a player character can qualify, since "making the worst choices possible" doesn't count? The only case I can ever remember of a game where the PC is canonically monster-worthy is the Hatred guy, and he was a controversial case who wound up getting cut, at least from what I can tell.
I feel like that line is kind of misleading.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
It's rare, but it does happen. There's at the very least the EvilQuest dude.
EDIT: Also Brother Silence and the Ghostrunner DLC character.
Edited by ACW on Jul 6th 2023 at 5:06:27 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Comic quotes look good to cut but I likewise dig the Degaton, Preacher and Brainiac ones, so gonna say keep to those at least. Good work!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.