Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Possibly. I admittedly have only seen the films (though looking at his writeup, I think Jr.'s can be copied and pasted).
So the film tree will be Jr. and Ava; the comic tree Jr. and Colonel?
I'm curious about Comic!Wallenquist: Too much Orcus on His Throne?
And yeah, I figured Colonel was only from the comics; I don't even REMEMBER him from the films.
Edited by ACW on Jun 8th 2023 at 12:18:38 PM
Fair enough.
BTW, I cut the header from the comic tree, removed Kevin. and put Jr. second. For the film tree he'll go first since he appeared first.
Is this
dude a cut?
Edited by ACW on Jun 8th 2023 at 12:31:16 PM
Cut Kevin.
I've re-watched the Team Galactic episodes from the Pokemon anime and I'm actually not sure if their version of Cyrus counts (I thought I'd brought him up before, but I searched and couldn't find anything, so I guess not). There's a few things that I think contradict the view that he was just selfish or out for himself.
First, though his backstory is omitted some of his dialogue still hints at him being a Well-Intentioned Extremist as in the games. In his first appearance when he's talking about the creation of the world, he talks about how beautiful it must have been because there was no war back then, and Carolina then says that as long as she's known Cyrus he's always been a pacifist at heart. He later says this again during the Team Galactic finale, that he wants to tear down the old world of war and conflict and replace it with a better one, and that the current world can't be saved because as long as humans have emotion they will always fight. This implies his goal was to create a new world in his image where people would live in peace, similar to what Thanos wanted to do in Endgame.
Another moment is in "The Needs of the Three" where he stops his subordinates from attacking Ash and his friends, telling them he's disappointed that they failed to learn anything about his hate of violence, and calmly tells Ash to control his anger and explains his motives to him to try to convince him to stand down, which hints that he does have some amount of respect for him. Also, given this context, this is likely why he betrays his subordinates later, as he feels they don't belong in his new world because they enjoy violence. While he does say he's the only one from the original world who should go there, as he thinks everyone else is beyond saving due to their emotions, it doesn't necessarily mean he was lying about wanting to create a better world.
I'm not sure on him because his exact motives seem up to interpretation, but I'm curious to hear other opinions.
Edited by Javertshark13 on Jun 8th 2023 at 7:12:03 AM
Wasn't this stuff about Cyrus
In his original ep.
Hes an extreme hypocrite their. And the anime leaves out the recreate part.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yeah. The anime pretty much adapts out the Freudian Excuse and depicts him instead as a self-serving sociopath.
Edited by AustinDR on Jun 8th 2023 at 6:07:29 AM
So I noticed an issue with an entry on Captain America. It involves the character of Marvel Comics: Red Skull and involves retconned information from 1984 being used with the different post retcon backstory from 2011.
- Red Skull, real name Johann Schmidt, is Cap's Arch-Enemy, and a protégé of Adolf Hitler himself. Once a bitter, psychotic street kid, Schmidt was originally a petty criminal with a violent streak. After having his romantic advances rejected by a Jewish girl who'd been nice to him otherwise, Schmidt flew into a rage, killed her, and finding he liked murder, set out to commit it again. Convincing a friend to try and assassinate Hitler, Schmidt stepped in and saved Der Fuhrer's life. He then donned a Skull-shaped mask and took on the role of a grateful Hitler's spymaster. Trapped in suspended animation by Cap, Schmidt awakened in the modern era and resumed his old ways. Firmly convinced that Dystopia Justifies the Means and that everyone needs somebody to bully, Schmidt has committed every crime in the proverbial book, from the petty to the grandiose. He made several attempts at taking over the world through the use of the Cosmic Cube, killing thousands of people every time; attempted to transplant Adolf Hitler's brain into Captain America's body; tried to bodyjack Cap himself on several occasions; and fought The Kingpin for control of the New York drug trade. He has manipulated the Scarlet Witch as part of a plan to exterminate the world's mutant population; used his Dust of Death to gruesomely kill any subordinate who fails him or looks at him funny; and has been the mover and shaker behind countless Neo-Nazi movements, fascist governments, and terrorist cells, most notably Hydra and A.I.M. In an alternate future, he spent his time triggering natural disasters, then showing up to inform people that he would not be saving them. When his daughter, Sin, was born, Schmidt planned to kill her for the crime of being a girl; he continuously abuses her. While in a relationship with Mother Night, he brutalized her constantly. With an end goal of reducing society to its most primitive, dog-eat-dog levels, Schmidt is universally despised in both the superhero and supervillain communities.
- After having his romantic advances rejected by a Jewish girl who'd been nice to him otherwise, Schmidt flew into a rage, killed her, and finding he liked murder, set out to commit it again.
In particular, this part of Red Skull's history was actually Retconned all way in 2011, in Red Skull incarnate. In the canon version, Johan pushes her downs, robs her father's store and abandons her, but doesn't kill her and she's last seen lying on the floor, crying.
The name of the girl has also changed from Esther to Emmy. The Watsonian explanation for the change in Red Skull's backstory was him possibly mis-remembering his past or intentionally lying to Captain America as it was all a Flash Back told to Captain America by a Rapidly aging Red Skull.
Short version is Johan/Red Skull murdering the girl was retconned and is no longer canon.
The Doylist explanation was Red Skull incarnate wanted a more realistic take on his origin.
To quote the Captain America page
- As a young man the Red Skull murdered a teenage Jewish girl for rejecting his clumsy and creepy advances, even though otherwise she liked him and was willing to overlook it. He thought it was the best rush of his life and it served as a release for all the pent up anger and frustration he felt towards the world. One of the reasons he joined the Nazis was for more opportunities to have a rush like that, and it still serves as one of his prime motivations for his numerous crimes.
- However, this story was told by an old, viciously senile Skull, casting doubts on its accuracy. It has since been retconned out of existence. He did rob the girl's father's shop, however.
- As a young man the Red Skull murdered a teenage Jewish girl for rejecting his clumsy and creepy advances, even though otherwise she liked him and was willing to overlook it. He thought it was the best rush of his life and it served as a release for all the pent up anger and frustration he felt towards the world. One of the reasons he joined the Nazis was for more opportunities to have a rush like that, and it still serves as one of his prime motivations for his numerous crimes.
Overall the two backstories are pretty incompatible and can't be combined like how the current entry does. For clarification in the version of the story, in the Stan Lee version, Johan was 30 years old when he met Esther, whilst in the Incarnate version, he was 14 years old.
- Red Skull, real name Johann Schmidt, is Cap's Arch-Enemy, and a protégé of Adolf Hitler himself. Once a bitter, psychotic street kid, Schmidt was originally a petty criminal with a violent streak. Convincing a friend to try and assassinate Hitler, Schmidt stepped in and saved Der Fuhrer's life. He then donned a Skull-shaped mask and took on the role of a grateful Hitler's spymaster. Trapped in suspended animation by Cap, Schmidt awakened in the modern era and resumed his old ways. Firmly convinced that Dystopia Justifies the Means and that everyone needs somebody to bully, Schmidt has committed every crime in the proverbial book, from the petty to the grandiose. He made several attempts at taking over the world through the use of the Cosmic Cube, killing thousands of people every time; attempted to transplant Adolf Hitler's brain into Captain America's body; tried to bodyjack Cap himself on several occasions; and fought The Kingpin for control of the New York drug trade. He has manipulated the Scarlet Witch as part of a plan to exterminate the world's mutant population; used his Dust of Death to gruesomely kill any subordinate who fails him or looks at him funny; and has been the mover and shaker behind countless Neo-Nazi movements, fascist governments, and terrorist cells, most notably Hydra and A.I.M. In an alternate future, he spent his time triggering natural disasters, then showing up to inform people that he would not be saving them. When his daughter, Sin, was born, Schmidt planned to kill her for the crime of being a girl; he continuously abuses her. While in a relationship with Mother Night, he brutalized her constantly. With an end goal of reducing society to its most primitive, dog-eat-dog levels, Schmidt is universally despised in both the superhero and supervillain communities.
As Red Skull's entry is super long, we could just cut out that part of the entry like the above bullet? Alternatively maybe it could be replaced with something else?
Anyhow I don't think we should have outdated information on the page, especially as it seems to have confused editors on the wiki, so is everyone ok with the idea of changing this entry? The character still stays as a Complete Monster, only the specific part of that entry would change.
Edited by Monsund on Jun 8th 2023 at 9:27:54 AM

Cut Kevin