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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#6801: Jun 7th 2023 at 11:09:40 AM

Here's a pair of writeups that need fixing me thinks.

Original

  • Diabolik: Diabolik himself may be a ruthless Master Thief, but he operates with a level of honor and has a set of unbreakable standards. As a result, the comic has introduced some pure evil monsters for him to fight at times.
    • Federico the Duke of Vallenberg: To try and take over the Kingdom of Benglait, he first created out of nowhere the terrorist organization Grey Ravens to provoke a civil war. He then married his ticket to the throne, Altea, and faked his death to avoid being identified as the leader of the Grey Ravens. Next, after Benglait became a republic without him being able to take over, he launched a series of terrorist attacks that nearly killed even Altea. After that bit him back in the ass as Diabolik and Ginko dismantled a branch of his organization, he launched other attacks, including a willingly failed one against Altea to justify both his faking his death and then his sudden return as motivated by his love for her and the desire to protect her while still trying to cause that civil war.
    • Mr. Logan: The CEO of a pharmaceutical industry, he purchased a Synthetic Plague and its vaccine. His ultimate plan was to release the first into the civilian population in order to wait for the panic and then "discover" the vaccine, all in the name of money. Logan stands in stark contrast to Diabolik and his more honorable methods of theft. He is willing to kill countless civilians with his manufactured plague, just to line his pockets and achieve fame from it.

Rewrites

  • Diabolik: Diabolik himself may be a ruthless Master Thief, but he operates with a level of honor and has a set of unbreakable standards. As a result, the comic has introduced some pure evil monsters for him to fight at times.
    • Federico is the ambitious Duke of Vallenberg who is aiming for control over the kingdom of Benglait. Creating the terrorist organisation, the Grey Ravens, Federico has them provoke a civil war to cause countless deaths. Marrying Atlea to attempt to claim the throne but failing to do so because of Benglait becoming a republic, Federico fakes his death and orchestrates a series of horrific terrorist attacks upon the kingdom. When Diabolik and Ginko interfere with his plans, Federico continues with his onslaughts and launches an attack on Atlea, so he could return from his supposed demise and have the Grey Ravens convert Benglait into a fascist state with him ruling over.
    • Mr Logan is the depraved CEO of a pharmaceutical company who's only out for his monetary gain. Purchasing a Synthetic Plague and it's vaccine, Logan then unleashes the virus onto the civilian population, killing countless innocents and causing a mass panic. Logan's intention is to then "discover" the vaccine and use it to be able to rake in money from the population and appear as the hero who saved them all.

How does these look?

[down] Like that?

Edited by WetFlannels on Jun 7th 2023 at 7:14:30 PM

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#6802: Jun 7th 2023 at 11:13:30 AM

Keep the header, but otherwise they look good.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#6803: Jun 7th 2023 at 11:13:55 AM

Looks good Wet, thought I agree with keeping header.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#6804: Jun 7th 2023 at 11:17:35 AM

Personally I'd say Father qualifies in both versions but Light's anime counterpart narrowly misses, but regardless its' not worth the work to create another entry for either because they're 1:1 similar.

@ACW Prefer the first

Edited by xie323 on Jun 7th 2023 at 11:29:51 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#6805: Jun 7th 2023 at 11:48:31 AM

Wet: Yeah, like that. Please add to the Drafts.

Edited by ACW on Jun 7th 2023 at 2:59:11 PM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#6806: Jun 7th 2023 at 12:04:16 PM

Bad entry/possible cut from Holyland:

  • Holyland: Yagi kidnaps the hero's love interest Mai, force-feeds her the drug True to get her into a state of severe addiction, and ties her up in a place where three of his henchmen might possibly rape her. He has the whole thing video-recorded and broadcast over the Internet via his cellular phone as a way to keep Yuu from fighting back while Yagi's thugs beat him to a pulp. Even his boss King doesn't sink this low.

So he gets a girl addicted to a drug and threatens to have her gang-raped and...that's pretty much it? Is it just a threat? The writeup doesn't expound beyond this beyond the idea they "might possibly" do it, which means I'm incredibly dubious this guy passes our baseline. I think this is another entry that was grandfathered in.

I have no familiarity with the work but I'm vouching for a cut right now, unless someone familiar can actually verify he qualifies.

Edited by Scraggle on Jun 7th 2023 at 1:04:34 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#6807: Jun 7th 2023 at 12:20:51 PM

Yeah, that's probably worth cutting.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#6810: Jun 7th 2023 at 12:22:51 PM

Looks good Wet, cut there and wanted to suggest a rewrite. From Black Lagoon:

  • Black Lagoon: In this Crapsack World, filled with terrible people, none manage to be quite as hateful—or fundamentally petty—as Chaka from the "Fujiyama Gangster Paradise" arc. A Yakuza lieutenant with a penchant for Domestic Abuse, Chaka makes his entrance beating up Rock in an effort to impress Revy. When the battle between the Yakuza and the Russian mob goes badly for the Yakuza, Chaka kidnaps and brutalizes Yukio, his boss's teenage daughter, beating her bloody, and plans to sell her to a sexual sadist as part of his plan to take control of the remnants of the Yakuza. When Revy and Ginji arrive to bail her out, Chaka shoots through his own men to try and get at them, kills another man for daring to try and run away, then runs away himself, leaving his men to be massacred. Childish, stupid, and completely out of his depth, Chaka manages to make an impression only through his complete lack of conscience, loyalty, or human decency.

It's too conversational and there are too many details about the surrounding setting and not getting to the point of what makes Chaka so bad. I'd like to suggest a streamlined version:

  • Black Lagoon ("Fujiyama Gangster Paradise" arc): Chaka is a childishly violent Yakuza thug who introduces himself by beating Rokuro "Rock" Okujima in an attempt to impress Rebecca "Revy" Lee. When the Mob War between the Yakuza and Russian mob goes badly for his faction, Chaka kidnaps and brutalizes the teenage daughter of the Yakuza head, Yukino Washimine, threatening to sell her to a sexual sadist to be raped and tortured. Intending to take control of the Washimine clan with Yukino and her father out of the way, when Revy and Yukino's bodyguard come for him, he hides behind his own men, shooting through them and killing one for trying to run while fleeing himself.

Thoughts?

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#6811: Jun 7th 2023 at 12:37:23 PM

[up] Definitely prefer the rewrite

Just to clarify, I think Light counts in the anime, but does not require a separate writeup. My issue is that we don't know for sure and if he only counts in the Manga, we should say so.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#6812: Jun 7th 2023 at 12:43:57 PM

Slash Yagi, like the rewrite

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#6813: Jun 7th 2023 at 12:54:36 PM

I think the part remarking's Chaka's Evil Is Petty traits matter here. This is a setting with a lot of criminals, so Chaka stands out because he is fundamentally Evil Is Petty incarnated compared to other antagonists

Watch me destroying my country
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#6814: Jun 7th 2023 at 1:15:49 PM

Maybe Evil Is Petty for his name, Psychopathic Manchild around "childishly"?

Edited by ACW on Jun 7th 2023 at 4:15:57 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#6815: Jun 7th 2023 at 1:35:30 PM

The pothole is sufficient for noting that; I don't think Light needs an addendum to his writeup either way.

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#6816: Jun 7th 2023 at 1:36:53 PM

Cut Yagi

Great condensing there 43!

Added my rewrite duo to the drafts.

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#6817: Jun 7th 2023 at 1:49:09 PM

This is kind of a cut proposal though kind of not. Also a "I think this is what they were going for" analysis too. Would not be opposed to either reault, but here we go:

  • The Mummy (2017): Ahmanet, once trained to succeed her father on the throne of Egypt, made a dark pact with the god Set after the birth of her baby brother to bring darkness throughout the world. Murdering her father, stepmother, and baby brother, Ahmanet was mummified alive before Set could manifest. Freed millennia later, Ahmanet drains the life of innocent people to replenish her strength and attempts to manifest Set through hero Nick Morton. Later captured by the organization called The Prodigium, Ahmanet escapes by massacring the personnel and creates widespread chaos and death throughout London. Setting her eyes on Nick, Ahmanet spitefully murders Nick's Love Interest Jenny and attempts to convince him to accept Set so she may rule over the world as a queen.

So in addition to the writers clearly intending Ahmanet be a Tragic Villain, she's a character I'm beginning to realize is littered in actions that combine both Broken Aesop and Disproportionate Retribution. Her "revenge upon the world" where "It was a different time" indicates a veiled feminist angle of "I will change this world that wanted to pass me over for the throne just because my baby brother was born" and it's not hard to imagine this is what the writers were trying to do. That would indicate a greater WIE ideal she had in mind.

It's all horribly and I mean horribly executed, don't get me wrong and this could also just be ACI for all I know. It's not a hard angle to see the story from once you dive a little deeper however. It's also trying to be a Take That! against the rules of both heirs and royal succession as well—while trying to present that Ahmanet as a highly skilled and brave warrior would be the logical and right choice for ruling Egypt but then would be instantly shoved aside due to either blatant sexism or bad, misplaced preconceptions about how women would rule.

Could be just projecting House of the Dragon onto this though admittedly. They clearly deal with those issues way, way, way better than this. These are clearly complex ideas that seem to be presented with Ahmanet by people who had no freaking idea how to do it right though.

While I hate to lose another 2017 keeper, I'll lean [tdown] to her staying. I can be persuaded otherwise though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 7th 2023 at 1:58:32 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#6818: Jun 7th 2023 at 1:50:17 PM

That reeks largely of Word of God. Like I get what the intention behind the writing was, but with it being that badly botched, I don't see the arguments against.

Edited by AustinDR on Jun 7th 2023 at 1:52:09 AM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#6819: Jun 7th 2023 at 1:59:54 PM

I get they were trying to make Ahmanet a Tragic Villain, but doesn't like all evidence for that rely on Word of God? like if you watched the movie with no knowledge of what the director said they were going for you would not get that angle at all? Yeah her father passing her over in the line of succession is a dick move but her immediately jumping to "join up with the God of Evil and destroy the world" just goes way too into Disproportionate Retribution, like it comes across as "If you won't give me power I'm gonna murder everyone" like Commodus instead of anything sympathetic

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#6820: Jun 7th 2023 at 2:01:38 PM

We know Koba is a solid keeper despite by all means he's just a very poorly executed Tragic Villain (though not to this extent), so no reason to see her gone.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#6821: Jun 7th 2023 at 2:02:49 PM

I’m gonna be honest, I don’t know where any of this analysis is actually backed up by the film itself. It’s pure ACI. Keep Ahmanet.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#6822: Jun 7th 2023 at 2:11:39 PM

I don't think it's pure ACI so much as it is extremely botched attempts at social commentary. It's like how I think Gozer was supposed to be presented as a strong; feminist icon in that particular movie, but by the end of the day, is still a human-hater wanting to enslave the world. For the record, the Gozer thing is not prior research—a scene in the movie literally has Lucky while looking at a drawing of Gozer refer to them as "her" and say they look "badass" or something.

Commodus from what I remember is both jealous and needy. Ahmanet is presented as ambitious but desperate and I do think there's a difference between him and her if only a slight one.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 7th 2023 at 2:12:08 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#6823: Jun 7th 2023 at 2:16:12 PM

Keep Ahmanet. She’s a vicious psychopath with a darkly sexual manner to drain life from her victims and there isn’t an ounce of sympathy successfully translated to screen. I’ve seen the movie and it’s just not there.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#6824: Jun 7th 2023 at 2:18:07 PM

It is social commentary that they botched so hard it practically doesn't exist in it. The whole thing with her is that in the movie itself she's just comes across as a power-hungry psycho and any trace of sympathy got nuked by the movie itself. She's like how Unalaq was supposed to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist but I honestly couldn't even tell what his supposed "well intentioned" goal was, Ahamnet was supposed to be a Tragic Villain but I can't see any of the tragedy

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#6825: Jun 7th 2023 at 2:22:26 PM

Keep Ahmanet. She may be a piss poor attempt at a Tragic Villain, but she is ultimately still a CM nonetheless.


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