Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
The writeup for Ra from Stargate has a chained sinkhole in the opening
"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"I don't understand the JoJo question and it's not correct to say it's never been discussed. The standard's quite set with nasty killers, rapists and the like making frequent appearances and many suggested haven't made the cut due to failing compared to those listed/other villains with redeeming qualities.
If you think someone might not be heinousness enough for Jojo standards just bring up whoever you're thinking of and we can talk about them then, just asking what the general standard is kinda vague and pointless
"We'll meet again" | 🏳️⚧️From the series I've seen, most the villains only tend to have a Kick the Dog moment and a couple kills at max compared to the others listed.
What's wrong D-16? Rise up!So I skipped the effortposts related to Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves at the time because I knew I was definitely going to see the film but hadn't done so yet. I now have, and first I'm just going to go ahead and note for the record that I agree the film's version of Szass Tam counts, despite his canonical WIE goals, because it does appear to be an alternate continuity. (It doesn't sound like here he wants to destroy the world at all - whether for utopian or selfish reasons - merely rid it of the living, which ironically is far less likely to ever get some kind of sympathetic motive). At this point it's completely redundant, but I figured I might as well as a FR fan specifically.
More relevantly, though: one thing I didn't see brought up in Lighty's effortpost on Forge
is that he objects to his former friends getting sent to the arena until Sofina pushes for it, in a way that pretty clearly implied he'd rather they get straightforward 'clean' deaths than be turned into undead by the Beckoning Death. Like, he seems legitimately uncomfortable. It's barely a redeeming quality (especially since he does do it anyway), but it felt like an actual moment of Even Evil Has Standards that was worth mentioning.
I think that was just Pragmatic Villainy on Forge's part, literally nothing else he does indicates he cares about them and he's just trying to convince Edgin to just die now to tie up loose ends.
"We'll meet again" | 🏳️⚧️Forge does mention he wants them killed quicker, but ultimately? He doesn't really care. He still sends them to the arena, shows no apparent remorse or guilt, and ditches them without any indication of concern whatsoever over them being killed by the monsters inside the arena or being hit with the Beckoning Death. While it's Sofina's intent, Forge allows it without any real protest and shrugs it off.
Guy's a pure sociopath and he demonstrates it well.
I'm agreeing that Forge still lets it happen and only wanted them all dead quicker for the sake of convenience. It's the equivalent of Caroline Denby while not willing to kill her sister Harriet directly is still condemning her to die with the rest of the world and like Crispian Davison not being able to personally stomach violence himself but still arranging for all his family members to be brutally murdered so he can get part of the inheritance money. If anything, I would've thought him actually wanting to be a parent to Kira would've been a disqualifying factor, but he's legit threatening her and willing to throw her away for his own survival though in the end—and it's not like Don Rafael Montero who only PRETENDS to threaten Elena because he knows Diego will drop his weapon if he does.
In short,
to keeping Forge.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 22nd 2023 at 6:31:57 AM
Got some writeups I think could do with some altering? I'll give my reasoning after each one.
- "Shibboleth": Frank Mc Nare nicknamed Body By Jake or BBJ, killed physically fit young women by stripping them down to their underwear and hog-tying them up by their necks and right ankle, and, when they would get tired of holding their position, they would strangle themselves. He had eluded the authorities since the 1980s and would send taunting letters to them over the years saying they were too stupid to capture him. While killing his most recent victim, he had called the cops before her death with the anticipation that she would, only for the dispatcher to hear the woman's last words being her begging for her life. Mc Nare had abruptly stopped the killings because he had married a woman who let him torture her, but once she was diagnosed with cancer and as was dying of the disease, he resumed the homicides. Upon finding out the son he had willingly abandoned years earlier-—yet had refused to let his stepfather properly adopt him—was a viable suspect in the most recent killing, he was more than pleased to let him take the fall for all of them, even though the man only had knowledge of anything about it because as a child he found a picture of one of his that left his scarred. Even as the son was still willing to go to trial for six murders, Goren allowed him to overhear Mc Nare bragging to Eames about how pathetic and weak he is and how glad he was able to get him out of his hair, not feeling the least bit remorseful for any of his actions. In being convinced by Goren that he was nothing like him, his horrified and visibly upset son gave him up and as he called him out on his behaviour upon his arrest, Mc Nare disowns him one final time.
- Jean Vilain is the leader of the mercenary group the Sangs, who cause havoc within Albania and its surrounding regions. Discovering a mine that contains six tonnes of pure, weapons-grade plutonium, which he plans to sell, Vilain then raids surrounding villages for their men to use as workers. Any worker who was too old or weak was summarily executed as a warning to the other slaves. Vilain ambushes The Expendables and bribes Billy's life for the mine map, killing him anyway after they give it to him. Wanting to speed up the process, Vilain has his thugs raid the surrounding villages again, this time with the intent of using female and child slaves. When Vilain obtains the plutonium, he seals the mine, trapping all of the slaves to tie up loose ends.
- Malefor is an evil dragon, banished by the Dragon Elders for his ambition, power, and limitless evil. Waging war against his own kind, he slaughtered countless people before being sealed away. Upon his orders, his ape servants smash the eggs of the purple dragons and overrun the rest of dragonkind. Manipulating Spyro into freeing him, Malefor attempts to forcibly corrupt him and his fellow dragon Cynder. Malefor then turned his entire army of ape servants into undead living skeletons and spread plague and destruction throughout the world. Malefor then prepared to bring about "The Great Cleansing": the extermination of all life in the world save that which he could corrupt, to craft a new world in his own twisted image.
- Vengeance & War of the Damned: Nemetes proves that not even the rebels are devoid of evil in their ranks. Initially a callous Jerkass of the German slaves, once the rebels have taken a Roman city, Spartacus does his best to ensure that the prisoners are treated with every respect and courtesy. Nemetes kidnaps a Roman Domina and rapes and tortures her for sport, prostituting her to be tortured or brutalized by soldiers he knows will go for it. When Julius Caesar is disguised amongst the rebels, Nemetes demands he show his loyalty by hurting the brutalized girl even more, which horrifies even the hardened Roman and forces him to deliver a Mercy Kill. When Caesar sheds his façade and puts Nemetes at sword point, Nemetes simply tries to bargain to betray Spartacus and turn over all the armies and civilians with them to the Romans if he can escape; an offer Caesar rejects.
- "Shibboleth": Frank McNare is a repulsive Serial Killer with a penchant for targeting young, physically fit women. Choosing his victim, Frank would then strip them to their underwear and tie them up by their neck and ankles, causing the victim to asphyxiate themselves when they got too tired from holding their position. A sadist at heart, Frank would repeatedly taunt the police by sending letters about their failure and in one instance forced an officer to hear the dying pleas of one of his victims. Despite stopping his killings due to marrying a woman who'd he would repeatedly abuse, Frank resumes his homicides when diagnosed with cancer. Hearing his son, who he had abandoned, was a suspect for his latest murder spree, Frank happily lets him take the fall for his crimes viewing him as weak and pathetic.
A single episode guy doesn't need a 300 word writeup.
- Jean Vilain is the leader of the Sangs, a mercenary group notorious for causing havoc within Albania and its surrounding regions. Discovering a mine that contains six tonnes of pure, weapons-grade plutonium, which he plans to sell, Vilain then raids surrounding villages for their men to use as workers. Any worker who was too old or weak was summarily executed as a warning to the other slaves. Vilain ambushes The Expendables and bribes Billy's life for the mine map, killing him anyway after they give it to him. Wanting to speed up the process, Vilain has his thugs raid the surrounding villages again, this time with the intent of using female and child slaves. When Vilain obtains the plutonium, he seals the mine, trapping all of the slaves to tie up loose ends.
Fixed the first sentence so it flowed better.
- Malefor is a monstrously evil dragon responsible for the trilogy's events. Banished by the Dragon Elders after succumbing to his own ambition and megalomania, Malefor formulated a new army and waged war against his own kind before being sealed away. To stop the prophecy of the purple dragon, Malefor had his ape servants raid the dragon temple and smash all of the eggs within. Seeking to be released from his prison, Malefor provided Gaul the dark magic in which he could corrupt the hatchling Cynder into a loyal servant; having her torture and drain the magic of the Dragon Elders to aid him. Free from his prison, Malefor "rewards" his ape army by stripping them of their flesh and forcing them to live in the shadows. Creating a new army of Grublins from the earth, Malefor has them ravage the surface, killing all within their path. Fond of crushing the hope of his enemies, Malefor has his armies retreat to only sic a Golem onto the city of Warfang. Intending on bringing about "The Great Cleansing", Malefor resurrects The Destroyer and attempts to use it to bathe the world in a blazing inferno and extinguish all that lives.
The current is really good but had some factual inaccuracies, the dragon temple raid wasn't full of purple dragons it was only to stop the birth of Spyro, when he condemns the apes to a Fate Worse than Death he replaces them with the Grublins to raze the world, the apes are left as more or less feral creatures, Malefor never states he wants to remake the world in his own image (apart from cut dialogue) but he definitely wants to scorch the planet.
- Vengeance & War of the Damned: Nemetes proves that not even the rebels are devoid of evil in their ranks. Initially a callous slave who was rescued by Spartacus, Nemetes opposes his leader's wishes of not harming innocents by attempting to execute Roman civilians. Viewing the Roman prisoners with disdain, Nemetes forces two prisoners to fight over bread out of simple amusement. Taking Caesar to a shed, Nemetes tries to have the man rape and abuse an innocent Roman girl to prove his loyalty. When Caesar sheds his facade and holds Nemetes at sword point, the rebel attempts to save his own skin by pledging his allegiance and selling out the rebels.
I remember bringing this one up before when I rewrote the other guy listed but never got to it, it seems.
Feedback would be appreciated!
- For reference the guys are from:
Yeah keep Forge. He just a greedy sociopath out for personal gain while leaving everyone to die by Sofina’s plans
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff@Lighty so like this? And your opinion of the other rewrites if that's alright please?
- Vengeance & War of the Damned: Nemetes proves that not even the rebels are devoid of evil in their ranks. Initially a callous slave who was rescued by Spartacus, Nemetes opposes his leader's wishes of not harming innocents by attempting to execute Roman civilians. Viewing the Roman prisoners with disdain, Nemetes forces two prisoners to fight over bread out of simple amusement. Taking Caesar to a shed, Nemetes tries to have the man rape and abuse an innocent Roman girl, that he himself has brutally raped and abused along with having her violated by other soldiers, just to prove his loyalty. When Caesar sheds his facade and holds Nemetes at sword point, the rebel attempts to save his own skin by pledging his allegiance and selling out the rebels.
Edited by WetFlannels on Apr 22nd 2023 at 5:11:36 PM
What's wrong D-16? Rise up!Alright thanks for the response there Lighty.
How about something like this? To keep the original mostly intact:
- Vengeance & War of the Damned: Nemetes proves that not even the rebels are devoid of evil in their ranks. Initially a callous Jerkass of the German slaves, Nemetes would repeatedly attempt to execute Roman prisoners once the rebels have taken a Roman city despite Spartacus doing his best to ensure that the prisoners are treated with every respect and courtesy. Nemetes kidnaps a Roman Domina and rapes and tortures her for sport, prostituting her to be tortured or brutalized by soldiers he knows will go for it. When Julius Caesar is disguised amongst the rebels, Nemetes demands he show his loyalty by hurting the brutalized girl even more, which horrifies even the hardened Roman and forces him to deliver a Mercy Kill. When Caesar sheds his façade and puts Nemetes at sword point, Nemetes simply tries to bargain to betray Spartacus and turn over all the armies and civilians with them to the Romans if he can escape; an offer Caesar rejects.

I still have an unanswered question here.
Just how high is Jojo's heinous standard? I never saw anything discussion about it come out, but from what I saw only like 12 to 15 out of literally 70+ that count. Just curious.
Edited by Mr-ex777 on Apr 23rd 2023 at 2:13:45 AM