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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#5377: Mar 29th 2023 at 2:32:18 PM

Keep Mumkhar and Lee

Cut Chikatilo

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Purgatoryisof2 Since: Aug, 2022
#5380: Mar 29th 2023 at 5:52:09 PM

I'mma say cut Mumkhar based on the cut proposal-I don't see how the fact we only see that a dude was worse than him for a short time helps him when not only do we see it still, but the dude is worse than an important villain in a flashback alone.

Anyway, I do have a villain I feel should get a weak cut, from the episode The Monster Who Mocks of Snarled's Something Scary series.

  • The Monster Who Mocks: The titular monster of this shory—dubbed the Mimic—is a humanoid shapeshifting creature who approaches a delinquent boy being disciplined at a boot camp. The Mimic makes a deal with the boy and tells him it can give them both what they want before taking his form. The Mimic proceeds to set the boy up for a series of dangerous and deadly pranks around the camp, continuously getting him into trouble. When the boy goes to confront the Mimic, the true horror is revealed; the Mimic knocks the boy out and he awakens to find his school reduced to a flaming wreck, with the Mimic slaughtering and devouring staff and students alike, assimilating their body parts. The Mimic sarcastically thanks the boy for the opportunity, before disappearing into the woods.

Now, I do feel the Mimic would've been bad enough in most situations, given we know it kills 5-10 people and has no one to compete with. However, I do feel there's two things that make it overall not heinous enough.

First of all, while it is sadistic, nothing proves the Mimic's kills were much other than what it needed to survive. It mentions its reason for killing as being starved when the protagonist sees it having consumed multiple bodies, with nothing contradicting it. We have no evidence of any of its pranks while disguised as the protagonist actually killing anyone, just that they were deadly in nature. The fact the protagonist was never arrested also leans into the idea that no one died. Its only actions besides the pranks and killings is framing the protagonist for them both and wounding some of the instructors (likely in failed attempts to kill them anyway), which isn't really enough.

Second of all, the Mimic is pretty powerful. Not only can it shape-shift, its default form is a hulking monstrosity, and it's extremely agile. So while ten murders would be more than enough for a normal human or something, here it comes of as pretty small, especially since it didn't kill many of the other people despite wounding them.

Overall, I do feel it's a weak cut, since most of its actions feel like a predator out to get food to sustain itself, if through terrifying means, which is basically what you expect a predator to do in a fictional work. The fact the Mimic is incredibly powerful and has (relatively) little kills for someone of its stature doesn't help either.

Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Mar 29th 2023 at 8:58:01 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#5381: Mar 29th 2023 at 6:13:05 PM

I had seen the video, don't agree completely with the "just needed to eat" argument as the narrative paints the monster as sadistic when going about its crimes. That, and the monster killed around 5-10 of the people there.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#5382: Mar 29th 2023 at 6:15:52 PM

Leaning to keeping the monster.

IPP Wick Check created.
Purgatoryisof2 Since: Aug, 2022
#5383: Mar 29th 2023 at 6:51:28 PM

[up][up] Well, yes, its sadistic, I acknowledged that. But its sadism isn't the reason it kills.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#5384: Mar 29th 2023 at 6:53:08 PM

I understand that. Just saying that we have CM predators who, while they need to eat, were also exceedingly sadistic when going about it.

Purgatoryisof2 Since: Aug, 2022
#5385: Mar 29th 2023 at 6:55:52 PM

Out of all the examples I've seen (i.e. Night Feeder), they either outright leave the corpses, toy with their victims, or kill because it benefits them outside survivability. And I doubt any of them state they kill because of hunger specifically.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5386: Mar 29th 2023 at 7:45:25 PM

I'm fine with the Mimic

And lemme just clear something up: D is not "worse than Metal Face even before D became a Consul". He was a serial killer with an undisclosed amount of victims, and then became an immensely powerful Consul. Metal Face is a colony-killer who throws in Zanza to threaten all of humankind. D being a serial killer means nothing to that. It's only after D becomes a Consul, more powerful than Metal Face, that he becomes worse. So no, I don't think the argument that "D was a team-killer who kept trophies" makes him worse than Mumkhar as a whole.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#5387: Mar 29th 2023 at 7:52:04 PM

Cut Chikatilo, keep Mumkhar and the Monster

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#5388: Mar 29th 2023 at 10:07:21 PM

Okay, not too familiar with Citizen X nor the candidate (which is why i haven't voted for it), but i have seen this character been discussed in oter places. The argument i have seen against the scene of the villain breaking in tears it's his Villainous Breakdown and not necesairly him repenting.

From what i've heard, the police spent days trying to crack the guy up with a confession of his crimes, and it's only when the psychiatrist came in and read his profile that he started to cry, supposedly crying from being defeated rather than being remorseful. And that he at one point did admit to fondle a underage girl's breast at one point.

Watching the scene, i can see why this is an argument they seem to take. When the character cries he only clarifies things that the Citizen X did, and not necesairly remorse.

It's ultimately an argument i wanted to bring up, and just gonna abstain on the guy.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#5389: Mar 29th 2023 at 10:17:58 PM

If we're actually voting, keep Mumkhar - I said before, and still stand by the position, that he and D occupy fairly distinct niches despite some similarities as characters.

Dunno about the Mimic.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5390: Mar 30th 2023 at 12:32:02 AM

I understand the counterargument, but I personally think one has to really reach to assume Chikatilo's breakdown is purely out of being caught or, as the original EP hypnotized, "relief" at someone else recognizing his "urges".

His breakdown comes of as genuine sorrow, tearful and sobbing as he listens to his crimes being recounted and the psychology behind them thrown in his face, and he seems on some level ashamed at what he's done. His character throughout the film kind of further informs this as he's shown to be a meek and unemotional man who doesn't seem to have any joy in his life as he separates himself from his killings, so him finally being read like a book and confronted with the full horror of his actions has him breaking down into total mania as he nods along and confirms what he's done. It's not played as "pathetic monster is sad he's been caught", but moreso "genuinely unwell monster is confronted by the brutality and depravity of his actions and has a breakdown."

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#5391: Mar 30th 2023 at 6:25:28 AM

Keep the mimic

Ravok I want to make sure I'm understanding your post right

"Metal Face is a colony-killer who throws in Zanza to threaten all of humankind"

Does this mean he actually joins Zanza in his destructive plot? Because if he does then that solidifies my yes and should probably be in his write up.

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#5392: Mar 30th 2023 at 7:11:15 AM

On Octopath Traveler: Champions of the Continent someone changed Pardis's entry from this

  • Complete Monster: Pardis III is the king of Edoras, who, while initially appearing to be a stern and aloof ruler, quickly reveals himself to be one of Orsterra's most ruthless warmongers. Believing himself the only one "worthy" of ruling the continent, he lures the Ringbearer Chosen to his kingdom before personally murdering Mehraz, his general and a beloved hero of his people, only out of spite for Ringbearer being more popular than him, and frames the Chosen One for the crime. After stealing the rings, Pardis launches a massive invasion on the rest of Orsterra, leaving countless dead in his wake. When Elrica, his daughter, opposes him and tries to put an end to his campaign, Pardis brutally beats her before beheading her in front of both the Chosen One and his younger daughter Alaune, purely in an attempt to break the Chosen One's spirit so that Aelfric's Ring becomes corrupted. While all the other villainous Ringbearers are some degree of Tragic Villain or otherwise have lines they will not cross, Pardis stands out for lacking any of those and simply being a selfish monster.

To this

  • Complete Monster: Pardis III is the king of Edoras, who, while initially appearing to be a stern and aloof ruler, quickly reveals himself to be one of Orsterra's most ruthless warmongers. Believing himself the only one "worthy" of ruling the continent, he lures the Ringbearer Chosen to his kingdom before personally murdering Mahrez—who was his best general, his son-in-law, and a beloved hero of Edoras—purely out of spite due to Mahrez being more popular than him, and frames the Chosen One for the crime. After having Gonska steal the Rings of Aeber, Draefendi, and Brand for him, Pardis III launches a massive invasion on the rest of Orsterra (violating a peace treaty in the process), leaving countless dead in his wake. When Elrica, his daughter, opposes him and tries to put an end to his campaign, Pardis brutally beats her before beheading her in front of both the Chosen One and his younger daughter Alaune, purely in an attempt to break the Chosen One's spirit so that Aelfric's Ring could become corrupted (though it doesn't work). While all the other villainous Ringbearers are some degree of Tragic Villain or otherwise have lines they will not cross, Pardis stands out for lacking any of those and simply being a selfish monster.
    • Adding onto his many crimes, Pardis III forced the lord of Grandport to give him his daughter Ulrica as a wife to spare Grandport from being conquered by Edoras. When Ulrica gave Pardis III two daughters, he wanted to execute them because they were too weak in his eyes and because he Wanted a Son Instead. Ulrica was forced to commit suicide to convince Pardis III to spare her daughters' lives. Additionally, before Pardis III became king, he poisoned his brother, who was the original heir to the throne. Finally, when Pardis III was forced to stand trial by the Church of the Sacred Flame, he and Gonska rigged the trial so the Church couldn't punish him for his crimes.

Besides the improperly indented addition they also changed some stuff in the main entry

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#5393: Mar 30th 2023 at 7:36:55 AM

Sigh...revert it back but PM the troper first so as to avoid an Edit War.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#5394: Mar 30th 2023 at 8:17:10 AM

[up][up][up] No, he's not connected to Zanza really. He works for Egil who is against Zanza, and Metal Face tries to kill Zanza's body on top of Prison Island.

Keep Mumkhar, this was a conversation before after D was accepted back when Xenoblade 3 released, and I don't really think anything has changed since then. Aionios is a different world to the Bionis and Mechonis after all and should have a seperate standard.

Edited by ReynTime250 on Mar 30th 2023 at 4:20:33 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5395: Mar 30th 2023 at 9:39:01 AM

Yeah I meant Egil lol but it does still entail threatening all life on Bionis. Quoting his character page:

  • Psycho Supporter: He fully supports Egil's plan to exterminate all life on Bionis, but only for the joy of slaughtering innocent lives and not because of Egil's greater plans.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 30th 2023 at 9:39:23 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#5396: Mar 30th 2023 at 9:55:45 AM

There's also the fact that when questioned by it, he says it's because "It's [Dunban's] home". He doesn't care about anyone's lives, other than to make Dunban angrier.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
Kookosbanaani Since: May, 2015
#5397: Mar 30th 2023 at 10:14:03 AM

[tup] Keeping Mumkhar, due to the novelty of him being motivated not only by sadism, but sheer unjustified envy and making Dunban and his friends suffer as much on a physical and emotional level as possible.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#5398: Mar 30th 2023 at 11:34:32 AM

If Mumkhar is working with a plan of killing all life on Bionis, that could be worth adding to his writeup, as wanting to kill your own species is......bad, to say the least

"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#5399: Mar 30th 2023 at 12:08:32 PM

So who's definitely being cut, and can someone please do the thing at Former Complete Monsters?

Derv0sB2 Since: Apr, 2020
#5400: Mar 30th 2023 at 2:08:58 PM

Cut Jia, keep Lee and the Mimic, tentative keep Mumkhar/Metal Face, abstain on Chikalito.

Does anyone have any more feedback/things to say on these edit proposals? With 2x [tup]'s and with some of the concerns in the other 2x tropers responses having been addressed in replies or the redraft, if there's no objection in the next 48 hours, then I'll assume it's okay to move them to the CM Drafts page.

Edited by Derv0sB2 on Mar 30th 2023 at 2:44:59 AM


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