Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
@futuremoviewriter My point about Death is that he is proof that the filmmakers could have gone much further with Jack as a serious villain. He's not restricted by anything like censorship or audience expectation. It's just the filmmakers choose to turn Jack into a comedic over-the-top villain, likely to contrast to the more serious nature of Goldilocks and Death.
And the fact that I'm hearing the novelization actually removed Jack's humor and is going for a more serious take of his villainy gives me the impression that Jack was rewritten in the film to be less serious and more entertaining, which solidifies my choice to cut Film!Jack.
Edited by Shadao on Feb 28th 2023 at 10:53:11 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I think that last bit is, a bit speculative IMO.
I don't personally think that Jack was intended to just be an annoyance or comic relief in contrast to the other villains. Namely because he ends up becoming the films Final Boss and it does have bits that, IMO, do show the characters atleast taking him seriously as a threat.
Edited by Snoketrope on Feb 28th 2023 at 10:58:27 AM
The First man
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Jack was more of a Post-Final Boss, and I just remember the whole splinter gag, Jack commentating on his clothes staying intact, Perrito's cute face, Jack going "Wah?" and Jack asking everyone what he did do specifically to deserve his fate. I can't remember what exactly in the Final Battle was taken seriously when everything memorable is comedic gold.
@Shadao I again feel like the comedic tone taken with Jack contrasting Death being serious still doesn't undercut the story-weight making Jack a true legit threat with an important undertone of seriousness at least by the end of the story that absolutely by all means has to be stopped. It's a hard thing to pull off and not everything that tries can do it. It goes to show how tricky it can be given the fluctuation in opinions that arise and how easily they can change-or how views on candidates like this can go one way or the other in those rising and falling motions too.
While I'm still thinking what I think, that undertone the novelization one has from the sound of definitely seems like it's more there while for many Tropers, it was lost in translation with the Film one. It's bound to happen of course where one thing was intended and it just didn't come across the way it should've ultimately. No right or wrong about it, it just…is.
Also, the "What did I do to deserve this" Famous Last Words could also be an Evil Cannot Comprehend Good.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 28th 2023 at 11:08:18 AM
He means "What specifically?" 
He's well aware that he's an evil SOB who deserves this, but he has no idea which specific deed did him in.
Goku Black
Cut Jack.
We can debate the comedy all day. But I don't think he's bad enough regardless.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lizzid people!
I'll just stay out of this one.
Agree to cut Jack
Regarding Jack Horner, I haven't seen the new Puss in Boots, but in the first film, Humpty Alexander Dumpty tried to have an entire city destroyed by luring the giant goose to it. (He redeems himself, doesn't count)
Here, this guy abuses his own men and makes a bridge from them, not caring if they fall to their deaths in the process and has one serpent turned into gold. That's pretty underwhelming compared to trying to destroy an entire city, imo.
Not voting on him due to being unfamiliar with his film, but this point should be brought up as well.
Edited by WatTambor on Mar 1st 2023 at 12:00:10 PM
Curiosities on the writeup of Sealsadramon from Digimon Ghost Game
- It says his "objection" in life, when it seems more accurate to say "objective"
- The writeup goes from calling Sealsadramon "he" to "it" in the end of the writeup.
And about Jack, I won't cast a vote, but I did watch the film before he was approved, and it did feel off to me how his only kills were other villains (except for the flowers, which were attacking his forces first)
Edited by KingofNightmares on Mar 1st 2023 at 2:37:51 AM
—signature not found—
Barb / Temporary Kylo
I maybe have one or 2 other things to say on Horner, namely that point. But eh, it's late and I can understand the arguments. I'll head to bed for now and looking forward to the novel version!
Edited by Snoketrope on Mar 1st 2023 at 1:38:34 AM
The First man
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Is "he" or "it" more accurate?
Keep RAT, tentatively
Cut Reporter and Jack
I still feel Jack just manages to edge into Laughably Evil over Played for Laughs and I do think he's heinous enough and say keep Jack.
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
The Digi Wiki calls Sealsadramon an "it", if that means anything. Could try and look for other sources though.
And I think I will vote to cut Jack. Having seen the film, most of his crimes are played as funny and again, it feels off to me for a villain to count when his only standout crime is killing his other villains
—signature not found—
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, please look for official confirmation on Sealsdramon before we make the change.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Idk what to say right now
Edited by Echidna on Mar 1st 2023 at 7:49:07 AM
Finding this debate much less heated than the last, I'm—personally—going to give a polite cut vote for Jack and state I'm quite happy to hear out his novelization version!
I’m happy to hear out the novel myself
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Gonna abstain with Jack both sides make good arguments IMO.
This guy was brought up when we pruned the CSI page but nothing came of it really? I think because we was juggling with multiple candidates from that show to cut.
Writeup for reference.
- Colin Clark is a respected nightclub owner who moonlights as the "Gramercy Rapist". To this end, Colin stalks women in the New York City Subway system before manually gagging them and raping them, wearing a condom and forcing the victim to clean themselves and the crime scene to avoid leaving evidence. Having targeted 16 women in total-including an ex of Medical Examiner-turned-Detective Dr. Sheldon Hawkes-on multiple occasions Colin would steal a piece of his target's jewelry, which he would give to his fiance Mary Lowe. Having killed his most recent victim, when confronted in front of Mary by Detective Stella Bonasera, Colin attempts to play innocent before violently resisting arrest.
Sounds bad right? Well I can't believe I have to say this but he "just" rapes them. Other candidates listed have torture/rape under their belt or target children.
"But Wet he has the highest body count of rape victims". True but it's not an amount where he's stupidly eclipsing the other rapists. He's only got 16 victims where the paedophiles and torturers are reaching 8 minimum. There's not a large margin where his count is really bad when other rapists go above merely raping them.
Personally I think he's due a cut but hey YMMV.
Edited by WetFlannels on Mar 1st 2023 at 1:23:54 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
He/They
Not sure on Jack personally. I can see both points of view regarding whether he is taken seriously enough or not.
So Wikimon refers to Sealsdramon as an It in the Ghost Game entry. It also refers to the Digimon as a He in a game entry.
It's best to not talk about Reference Book entries as they all say "It" by design, as they're data in a computer being realized into a living being with how these entries are written. They are purely lore and do not apply to any media inherently.
Sometimes a Digimon is an It in terms of biological sex, but they still have genders sometimes. A lot of these are also fan wikis and it's unclear how accurate they are on things like those descriptions. As Digimon are often It by default, I'd look to see if the episode or work makes it clear what their gender is.
It's complicated, yep.
I brought Colin up before and was rather shocked he stayed, as I don't believe 16 victims is enough to offset that "just" rape, given the setting, is very light for crimes. If we wanted him on the list for bulk of victims I'd wanna see way more than that when he's supposed to stand with all the horrific murderers, tortures and human traffickers in the verse. If we're talking him again I'm going to strongly maintain my stance that we pull Colin.
Saying "cut" to Jack. My old problem with him stands; I think maybe you can argue he's bad enough with the sheer amount of Comedic Sociopathy they have with him, but the dude is literally evil comic relief.
Again, compare him to, say, Xykon or the villain from Jake Speed, who are also parodies of the "pure evil" archetype and the punchline of nearly every joke featuring them is "look at how evil I am!" The difference is those characters have moments of genuine gravitas. Jack, IMO, doesn't.
Shadao particularly brings up a good point with the Wolf. The film does have gravitas. Just never with Jack. That dramatically affects how I interpret his evil and the weight of his actions—which is to say, there isn't really any weight.
"Cut" Colin too, if he's really flunking the standard there.
Edited by Scraggle on Mar 1st 2023 at 7:12:48 AM
Welp changing for a cut on film!Jack and look forward to his novel counterpart.
IPP Wick Check created.