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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#4076: Feb 6th 2023 at 5:50:23 PM

I'm starting to wonder if the Shadow Queen from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year door still keeps in light of Dimentio trying to destroy the Multiverse. She sunk Rogueport and caused massive destruction, and hurt several innocents, trapping them in a Fate Worse than Death but considering that's par the norm for some Mario villains at least now, even small time ones like the Dark Star tried to destroy the world, and Dimentio nearly wipes out the multiverse out of pure spite and has about the same resources as the Queen, whereas the other villains have less resources. Dimentio and SQ are Physical Gods.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 6th 2023 at 5:51:44 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#4077: Feb 6th 2023 at 6:04:08 PM

Many were fed to her dragons, she was a ruthless tyrant and when brought back she tries to end the world. She's different from Dimentio but there's room for both, their crimes are not super common at all in the Mario world, at all.

ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#4078: Feb 6th 2023 at 6:04:45 PM

Well she was actually deemed to keep years after Dimentio. It was fairly recent to my knowledge, and I think it's because as powerful as SQ is, the Chaos Heart is such a massive resource in its own right that Dimentio is disproportionately heavy in resources. Also, SQ cast the entire world into darkness with Ancient Rogueport simply getting the worst of it. (The Pit of 100 Trials? That was one of SQ's favored methods of execution, that forced the victim to suffer long and painfully.) I say she still does plenty to keep.

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#4079: Feb 6th 2023 at 6:05:43 PM

Does Shadow Queen even have the resources to even pull such a move because I don't see it? Dimentio has the power to literally destroy the multiverse unlike Shadow Queen. I honestly doubt it's even fair to compare these two at all. I am going with a keep for Shadow Queen for the reason I stated because she pretty much does enough.

Edited by Echidna on Feb 6th 2023 at 9:06:07 AM

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#4080: Feb 6th 2023 at 6:06:36 PM

Also voting keep on the Shadow Queen.

IPP Wick Check created.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#4081: Feb 6th 2023 at 6:16:31 PM

Yeah, I guess it's like comparing Frieza with Buu in terms of resources. I was wrong but I'm glad we got it settled as I think Shadow Queen was cut before for being outclassed by Dimentio. Glad that's gone.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#4082: Feb 6th 2023 at 6:27:40 PM

I thought part of Shadow Queen's issue is that she was too generic(at the time), not simply being outclassed?

Either way, she's clearly not that generic(though our rules did change on what counts as generic, as I changed my vote based upon that rule change), so easy keep.

No worries, resource arguments can get a little muddy at times because of the specifics of scale and such.

Shadow?
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#4083: Feb 6th 2023 at 7:09:18 PM

Yeah keep the Shadow Queen. She’s definitely unique and heinous to count

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#4084: Feb 6th 2023 at 7:51:24 PM

Also alot of the villains you are using as arguments aren't even in the same continuity.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#4085: Feb 6th 2023 at 8:38:43 PM

Can't fault me for forgetting the Marioverse isn't one whole giant canon given that several characters from different canons sometimes appear in the main or RPG Canon. Like Toadsworth. That's the problem I read the Marioverse as one big Canon rather than several separate canons because Zelda and several other flagship Nintendo series are essentially one big canon of their own.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 6th 2023 at 8:39:15 AM

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#4086: Feb 7th 2023 at 1:13:26 AM

The way I see it for Mario games is that we take the standard per sub series. For example Paper Mario has a surprisingly jacked standard compared to say the mainline games. I'd take Luigi's mansion as its own Canon since King Boo appears elsewhere and isn't as omnicidal.

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#4087: Feb 7th 2023 at 1:24:21 AM

I believe Deathwing from Warcraft's elegibility has been called into question on the Proposal thread given that he was corrupted and driven insane by the Old Gods.

ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#4088: Feb 7th 2023 at 1:25:46 AM

[up] Hey! That was my line!

I have a question about Deathwing. While I understand and agree that his actions in Cataclysm pretty firmly show him to not care about any of his flight, I do wonder if the fact that he was tainted irrevocably by the Old Gods could count as disqualifying. We have seen how even otherwise near pure good individuals like the Keepers of Ulduar can be warped into their minions provided long enough exposure, so that causes me to wonder about his agency, since he is effectively N'Zoth's messenger boy/psychic slave. Not trying to spoil anyone's fun and clarification will cause me to happily retract my concern, I just want to be certain.

Edited by ForgoLight on Feb 7th 2023 at 1:31:18 AM

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#4089: Feb 7th 2023 at 1:50:44 AM

[up] Wasn't he originally a hero before being corrupted?

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#4090: Feb 7th 2023 at 1:53:39 AM

[up] Yes, he was one of the Five Dragon Aspects and was greatly revered for his wisdom before the Old Gods drove him insane with their whispering in his head and turned him against his friends.

I am a Warcraft fan but I am not that familiar with a lot of the lore of the universe, so I am not sure about Deathwing's qualification. Lightysnake or LoreDeluxe can answer better about him.

Edited by WatTambor on Feb 7th 2023 at 12:56:04 PM

ForgoLight The Ultimate Lifeform Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
The Ultimate Lifeform
#4091: Feb 7th 2023 at 2:22:06 AM

I will say as a fan of Warcraft Lore, historically characters corrupted by outside forces have Dying as Yourself moments like with Arthas. I am also aware that Loken, who was also a Titan made hero was corrupted by Yogg Saron... But Loken had genuine sympathy as of Chronicles...

"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Fireball246 Since: Jan, 2023
#4093: Feb 7th 2023 at 4:06:36 AM

Keep Shadow Queen. Btw, the way how I see Mario canon is that we should merely separate the Mainline Mario canon (Mainline platformers, Luigi’s Mansion, Super Mario RPG, Mario & Luigi, Mario + Rabbids) from the Paper Mario canon as the Paper Mario universe is clearly established to be of a separate universe from the Mainline Mario universe meaning that SQ only has to really compete with Paper Bowser, Count Bleck, Dimentio, and King Olly in terms of heinousness and considering that SQ completely lacks an artifact as powerful as the Chaos Heart like Count Bleck and Dimentio did, we really should not expect her to be capable of being powerful enough to destroy the entire multiverse even if she is still really powerful. She DEFINITELY does enough with what she’s given.

Edited by Fireball246 on Feb 7th 2023 at 5:11:34 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#4094: Feb 7th 2023 at 6:09:04 AM

Keep Frieza, Shadow Queen and Deathwing

Arawn999 Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#4095: Feb 7th 2023 at 6:50:46 AM

If Deathwing was driven insane and corrupted/enslaved/brainwashed by the Old Gods, though, doesn't that call his agency into question?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4096: Feb 7th 2023 at 7:00:29 AM

There's a huge difference between flipping a switch in someone's brain and swaying them to evil a la the Darkside. N'zoth helps someone down the path to become evil, but it was still Deathwing's ultimate choice at the end.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#4097: Feb 7th 2023 at 7:07:56 AM

If it helps to set a precedence for black dragons like Deathwing, Sabellian was Deathwing's right hand and just as equally corrupted but ultimately manages to pull a Heel–Face Turn all on his own.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4098: Feb 7th 2023 at 7:10:41 AM

The War of the Ancients features large sections written entirely from Deathwing's own POV, too. We've got a lot to go on

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#4099: Feb 7th 2023 at 7:22:33 AM

Conversely, I think I'd like to discuss general moral agency for Warcraft with you Lighty. Legion established demons were capable of being good and Shadowlands established undead and the forces of Death were, more often than not, good. Recent expansions seem to be hammering it home how all the major cosmic forces like Fel, Death, and even Void from the which the Old Gods originate are simply part of the universe created by some higher power called the First Ones. It's getting kind of over the top granted, but we previously discussed a ways back that we both felt the Old Gods didn't have agency either. All things considered, there's really nothing suggesting N'zoth and his kind aren't just as equally capable of moral judgment as any other being in the Warcraft Universe. My point being I know you once had N'zoth on your radar, so I'm thinking now he might be worth relitigation if he stands apart from the other Old Gods enough.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#4100: Feb 7th 2023 at 7:28:49 AM

I'll wait a bit longer, but yeah, I will happily EP N'zoth


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