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Complete Monster Cleanup

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Old Complete Monster cleanup thread

Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.

If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.

IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.

What goes through this thread?

    Examples 
  • Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
  • If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
  • If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
  • Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
  • If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.

What does not go through this thread?

    Examples 
  • New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
  • Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
    • Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
    • If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
  • Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
  • Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
  • Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
    • Spelling and grammar fixes.
    • Pothole changes.
    • Minor rewordings.
    • Spoiler tags.

While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:

  1. Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
  2. If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
  3. Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.

Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.

As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.

Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!


Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#351: Dec 11th 2022 at 12:35:03 PM

[up][up] The title the wiki uses is Literature.Tricksters Duet. I can just grab the writeup off the Monster page and make the YMMV, if that's good with everyone?

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#352: Dec 11th 2022 at 12:55:07 PM

OK, I made the changes to the ASOIAF page. I decided to name the title under which I put Maegor's entry "Literature and Live-Action TV canon" instead of "Book and show canon" because it sounds more professional in my opinion.

Before I moved Maegor's entry, he and Tyanna were listed under the category "House Targaryen". Since I moved Maegor's entry, I had to delete the category "House Targaryen" because there is only one entry left. Right now, the "The World of Ice & Fire; Archmaester Gyldayn's Histories; Fire & Blood" folder looks like that:

  • Ironborn
    • Dalton Greyjoy
    • Qhored I Hoare
  • Yi Ti/YiTish:
    • Bloodstone Emperor
    • Lo Bu
  • Tyanna of the Tower
  • Hugh and Ulf/the Betrayers

I decided to put Tyanna before Hugh and Ulf because she has lived before them, but of course, we can put them in different order if you want.

[down] Yeah, probably.

Edited by WatTambor on Dec 11th 2022 at 11:58:04 PM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#353: Dec 11th 2022 at 12:56:54 PM

If Lo Bu ends up getting cut we will probably need to change that section to something like this.

  • Yi Ti/YiTish's Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping an evil stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man and taking to practicing torture and dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire. Though his tyrannical regime fell in the following dark age, the Bloodstone Emperor's influence lingers still as followers of his sinister religion still practice his twisted teachings to present day.

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#354: Dec 11th 2022 at 1:22:31 PM

BTW, current tally on Lo Bu (tell me if I am missing someone's vote).

Yes(18): 43, jackie, Sky, Scraggle, Lighty, Ravok, G, MGD, papyru, Snoke, Wet, Bull, Interests, Joseph, Unknown, EmperorGeode, Luigi, Snowy

No(17): Wat, Kazuya, Silverblade, Lore, Xie, Ordeaux, Agent, Septimus, N, Orbiting, Zuxtron, Irene, gadiel, Demon, Mir, EmeraldEmperor, Purgatoryisof

Abstain(6): ACW, Yobaby, Critica, Powermaster, STARCRUSHER, jjjj

[down] Yeah, I was thinking something like that.

Edited by WatTambor on Dec 12th 2022 at 10:57:07 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#355: Dec 11th 2022 at 1:27:00 PM

Give it another half day to see if anything changes. But I think this is a cut.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#356: Dec 11th 2022 at 1:34:12 PM

I am wondering if we should maybe get out the current Hardy Boys writeups so that the page can be properly made. We can always add onto it later as I do remember that you guys had some more writeups coming.

Purgatoryisof2 Since: Aug, 2022
#357: Dec 11th 2022 at 1:49:48 PM

I am new here, and its not gonna change much given he's 5 votes below the amount needed to keep, but cut Lo Bu in my eyes from what I see. I feel the text pretty much states he's doing this because his people are about to be pillaged even more heavily by his enemies, what with them being described as more "greedy and rapacious" and their making of profit seeming to be selling people into slavery. In addition, given the fact he's either decided or doesn't accept offers of fealty, its pretty clear this isn't because his rule is under threat, making the only possible explanation of his actions a (pretty disproportionate) vengeance for what was done to the populace and a desire to stamp out the threat to them forever.

Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Dec 11th 2022 at 4:51:06 AM

Luigigalaxy Since: May, 2022
#358: Dec 11th 2022 at 1:58:14 PM

Personally, I’m gonna go with a keep for lo bu

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#359: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:05:00 PM

I'd like to amend a writeup of my own. From Neon Genesis Evangelion 2 my entry got changed to:

  • Neon Genesis Evangelion 2: Lacking the ambiguity of his anime version, Keel Lorenz is the Chairman of SEELE and an elitist psychopath with a god complex. Having triggered Second Impact and killed off most of humanity for his plans to become a deity, Keel now funds NERV to defeat the monstrous Angels, while subtly making moves to execute the scenario in which he and his cohorts in SEELE may transcend via the Human Instrumentality Project. If he discovers his underling's plan to betray him, Keel manipulates the Japanese military into assaulting NERV headquarters and slaughtering the staff nearly to the last. When another Evangelion pilot fights back, Keel attempts to have his violent, mindless Mass Production Evangelion units painfully tear her apart. Seeking to initiate Third Impact using Evangelion Unit-01, Keel cares nothing when his plot causes all of humanity to suffer nightmarish visions as they are remade powerlessly into Primordial Soup under him. His scheme meaning a state of permanence for all that lives under him, Keel's designs utterly twist the benevolent intent of humanity's alien ancestors.

I don't really like the pre-name intro so I revamped it to include the details of his clear monstrosity at the end.

  • Neon Genesis Evangelion 2: Chairman Keel Lorenz of SEELE is an elitist psychopath with a god complex. Having triggered the Second Impact and killed off most of humanity for his plans to become a deity, Keel now funds NERV to defeat the monstrous Angels, while subtly making moves to advance the scenario in which he and his cohorts in SEELE's council may transcend via the Human Instrumentality Project. If he discovers Gendō Ikari's plan to betray him, Keel manipulates the Japanese military into assaulting NERV headquarters and slaughtering the staff nearly to the last. When another Evangelion pilot fights back, Keel attempts to have his violent, mindless Mass Production Evangelion units painfully tear her apart. Seeking to initiate Third Impact using Evangelion Unit-01, Keel cares nothing when his plot causes all of humanity to suffer nightmarish visions as they are remade powerlessly into Primordial Soup under him. His scheme meaning a state of permanence for all that lives under him, Keel's designs cruelly twist the benevolent intent of humanity's alien ancestors' original plan. Lacking the ambiguous desire to evolve humanity of his original incarnation, Keel's dialogue makes it clear he is a vicious megalomaniac willing to inflict endless suffering to take ultimate power.

I redid the potholes as well but those I'm willing to be flexible on.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#361: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:21:25 PM

As one of the downvoters on Lo Bu, just chiming in to say that I will keep my downvote

Apart from the obvious lack of any discernible personality outside a few lines that stated "he committed genocide"(as it was pointed out, the other CMs we have with one or two sentences usually have enough to establish a personality, vague and flat as that personality/character may be), the way that the Jogos Nhai is characterized can allow for the interpretation of Lo Bu as more akin to the God Emperor or Dimitri Yazov(no not the IRL person, but an alternate history counterpart from a very popular game mod) in that he responds to past genocidal atrocities with disproportionate genocidal atrocities of his own. While this could easily be a NSWIE trait, we don't see anything indicating that from the text we have.

SpaceProtagonist (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
#362: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:23:42 PM

Well... looks like I've missed quite a bit from the past few days, including when this was announced. Nevermind, I've got a pre-existing entry (actually, a couple of preexisting entries) that I think should be re-examined.

My original plan was to discuss Stu Macher again (who I still think fails the franchise's massive heinous standard), but now, I'd like to talk about the current entries for Get Out (2017) which somehow contains 4 approved monster candidates, each of whom are from the Armitage Family. (Rose, Roman, Dean and Missy)

I had a strange feeling about having so many entries for a single film. For all of the members to be CM material, they'd have stand-out in their own unique way in terms of evil. Granted, everyone in the family has a role to play in brain transferal schemes, although I don't know if everyone stands out. Roman, the mastermind behind this whole operation, definitely stands out for obvious reasons, and his granddaughter Rose (aka the film's main villain) is heinous in her own right as she's the one who builds false relationships with his victims, force the to stay at her family home and leaves her family to do the rest. On top of that, not only does she take part in her family's scheme, she enjoys it. Not to mention, she'd personally try to shoot Chris when he tries escaping, has a high number of victims she hunts and shows complete apathy to her family's deaths.

Rose and Roman make since for being C Ms, but Dean and Missy seem to lack that extra oomph that makes exceptionally vile.

  • For Dean's case, he appears to have some form of respect for his father Roman, considering the manner in which he brought him up when discussing his round in the Berlin Olympics with Jesse Owens. Granted, he was posing as a loving father at the time, and trying to gain Chris' trust, but even when his true nature's revealed, there's no indication that his respect for his father was fabricated as well, or that it was solely because of his racial beliefs or pragmatic reasons.
  • For Missy's case... I feel like her worst action is forcing her victims to relive their worst memories and sending them to the Sunken Place. Now let's compare this to her husband, who personally does the brain surgeries to the black people and ensures the victim would have a nigh-difficult chance of escape.
  • Also, another key reason Rose and Roman became C Ms is because neither of them truly cared about their family as shown when they saw Marinne, Dean, Missy and Jeremy's corpses and show no visible grief or sadness. Dean and Missy weren't in Rose's position (besides, they were dead), so you can't say for sure if they would have been apathetic as well or if they actually cared about their family in some form. Remember, being a Complete Monster means you can't have any genuine loved ones — not even among family. Dean and Missy would likely fail the heinous standards to Rose, as despite everyone in the family having equal resources, and being vile in their own way, Rose and her grandfather went the extra mile by not caring about their family's deaths. And since Dean might respect his father in some manner, he'd be an instant cut.

So in conclusion, although I'll agree that everyone in the Armitage Family is extremely nasty in their own right, not all of them should necessarily be considered a Complete Monster. For the reasons listed above, I feel like Dean and Missy Armitage should be cut from this trope. What do you think? Agree, disagree? Feel free to share your thoughts.

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#364: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:31:44 PM

I am a little against dredging up a number of old discussions on this note? Stu was discussed about four times and participates in a wholly unique crime to the franchise.

And Missy and Dean, I think, are more than fine to stay here. There is no real bar for there to be four entries in a film. It's just extremely rare. Both Dean and Missy play pivotal, unique, and extremely cruel roles that make them stand out. Keep them. Missy mind-rapes people in a specifically horrific fashion that draws out their hidden pain and traumas to completely poison their minds with it. Dean is the one doing the transfers in a particularly heinous fashion.

I don't quite think that "there's too many" is a particularly compelling reason to cut, if they hit the criteria. The only path I can see to cutting them would be heinousness, and both play such a unique role that I cannot see anyone failing the heinous standard.

Missy's "Sunken Place" torture is just that: torture. It is a necessary part of the Armitage Coagula ritual, and she does it to every victim. It is such a vital, necessary part for placing them in the And I Must Scream state permanently that she and Dean stand out perfectly.

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 11th 2022 at 2:35:40 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#365: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:31:58 PM

I'm going to restate what I said of Dean last time this was brought up: he behaves like a completely different character when he drops the mask. His body language and dialogue become flat and he behaves and acts like a sociopath, pretending to be a loving family member in front of his victim isn't enough for me to get anywhere near buying his "redeeming qualities" when the family's whole shtick appears to be a put on, Innocently Insensitive parents routine to drive victims closer to Rose so they can perform the surgery; Missy is an integral part of what makes their acts so horrible, she sets them into the Sunken Place for Dean to perform the surgery and I can't see her as any less than her husband just because her skill set lies in the mind rather than the actual medical procedure.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#366: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:32:52 PM

Here's Greywhinder! Decided Star's suggestion to wait til it's confirmed he's the one impersonating Arthur to add that.

Harmony & Horror:Martin Greywhinder is the depraved co-founder of M&H harmony toys. Once a loving husband, he grew hateful, abusive and cruel when he learned that his wife had children with his brother. He allied with demonic forces and aired a haunted tv program that horribly mangled the children who watched it. He also murdered his young intern, ripping her spine out. He kills his wife Gloria and shoots his brother, fusing him with an animatronic and forcing him to help murder Gloria's children; using satanic rituals to force them into agonizing toy bodies. In his obsession with control, he turns his dog into a monster and tries to force him to kill the infant Ava. He continues to kidnap, mutilate and kill swaths of children and using their souls to make them into living toys unable to die.

Unwrapped.

''WebAnimation/HarmonyAndHorror'':[[MonsterClown Martin Greywhinder]] is the depraved co-founder of M&H harmony toys. Once a loving husband, he grew hateful, abusive and cruel when he learned that his wife had children with his brother. He [[DealWithTheDevil allied with demonic forces]] and aired a haunted tv program that horribly mangled the children who watched it. He also murdered his young intern, ripping her spine out. He kills his wife Gloria and shoots his brother, fusing him with an animatronic and forcing him to help murder Gloria's children; using satanic rituals to force them into agonizing toy bodies. In his obsession with control, he turns his dog into a monster and tries to force him to kill the infant Ava. [[SerialKiller He continues to kidnap, mutilate and kill swaths of children]] and using their souls to make them into living toys unable to die.

Edited by Snoketrope on Dec 11th 2022 at 2:37:49 AM

Bow to the Prototype
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#367: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:34:30 PM

Dig the rewrite, 43! And good job, Snoke!

Likewise just chiming in to say I would say Dean and Missy are fine for CM, tbh. They both have exquisitely nasty ways of ensuring the procedure goes off without a hitch (Missy being the one responsible for the Mind Rape, Dean for the actual surgeries), and their responsibility for the heinousness can't be overstated. Roman was the initial mastermind, but in present day it's shown that Dean and Missy are keeping the functions of their operation running on a day-to-day basis. Dean and Missy are The Heavy, Roman is the Greater-Scope Villain, Rose is the extra-sadistic minion...I think they're all good, personally.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 11th 2022 at 2:36:23 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#369: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:34:44 PM

Leaning keep for Missy and Dean.

IPP Wick Check created.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#370: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:37:06 PM

Furthermore, Missy isn't shown caring for her family. In fact, she reveals a firm dislike for her children, and no real care to Dean when the mask is off. Plus, she tries to kill Chris as well. Dean is only not in that position due to being killed first of the cult.

I think it's handy to point out there's no hard and fast rule that forbids many keepers in a film. It's very rare, but it does, and can happen as long as all elements are there and everyone has a unique niche.

Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 11th 2022 at 2:41:49 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#371: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:42:43 PM

Keep Missy and Dean. I also feel like the Armitages are sort of a Godhand situation, where they have shared crimes but with enough unique flourishes that they aren't a homogenous unit

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#372: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:52:45 PM

Personally Stu keeps for me with the rape and sexual torture of Maureen (I'm aware Billy also participated but he at least has a Freudian Excuse whereas Stu has no motive.)

Not seen Get Out but the listed all stand out from what I can tell. Rose kidnaps the people, Roman orchestrated it all, Dean and Missy both have parts in condemning innocents to have their minds stolen in unique ways.

Gonna hazard a guess and say the son is just a dick with no meat to his crimes?

Edited by WetFlannels on Dec 11th 2022 at 10:53:18 AM

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#373: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:53:52 PM

It's more than he's the muscle. His own deeds are nowhere near to the level of unique cruelty as his parents.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#374: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:57:14 PM

If we learned that Jeremy was hunting down and brutalizing black people to drag them back to the house screaming en masse I'd hear the case but he's really just the "Main villain's dumber younger brother" and gets none of the focus on his process that Rose does besides the one guy at the start.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#375: Dec 11th 2022 at 2:59:20 PM

Given our focus now as well? I am taking a review of past candidates to see any possibly ripe for cutting.


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