Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread
.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here
) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread
.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread
, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread
. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Since this got buried under the Lo Bu stuff, any thought on these
Fire Emblem entries?
I'll let votes on Lo Bu continue to land where they may.
Now that the new cleanup has slowed down a little I'll have some examples to contend myself. Until then here's what I owe from the old thread.
- Deep Red (1994): Dr. Thomas Newmeyer is an narcissiatic Mad Scientist who has artificially extended his own life through the alien "Deep Reds." To ensure the longevity of his own unnatural life, Newmeyer kills a slew of people who also have the Deep Reds in their blood so he can drain them dry. His victims range from his supposed best friend of forty years to numerous innocent bystanders, culminating in his attempt to murder a little girl with cerebral palsy for her Deep Reds. When Newmeyer tries to paint his crimes as the sacrifices of a Well-Intentioned Extremist, the hero counters that there's no human cost Newmeyer would deem insufficient in the pursuit of his own ego.
- Secret Origins ("Revelation"): Dr. Alt, in this proposed backstory for the Phantom Stranger, appears to be one of the men safeguarding the "architecture of existence" from cataclysm. In truth, Dr. Alt intends to allow the universe's destruction in a Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum, trying to create a new Big Bang because he doesn't want to go to the grave alone; torturing one of his fellow scientists, this man sacrifices himself to save the universe, transforming into the Phantom Stranger.
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 10th 2022 at 6:07:36 AM
And I think that's it for pending entries (well, minus Hardy Boys).
Dr. Alt's from here
, right? Post-Crisis? Other Continuities?
Okay, Always Watching can stay on the film page (it’s not licensed, but it is an official film produced by a distribution company)
I can’t find that information on Windigo, but it sounds like it might be fair game either on Film or Web Video.
I THINK The Movie can be moved to Web Video or Fan Works if only to simplify all the placement, since putting it as a “short film” doesn’t make much sense to me (it’s 78 minutes long)
All the Web Video ones can stay where they are - they’re as official as anything can get in the Mythos without being licensed
And as you said, Music can stay where it is.
So the only ones whose placement I’m unsure about are “The Movie” and Windigo - both of them may fit on Fan Works, while the former may fit on Web Video and the latter may fit on Film. The rest seem fine.
I'd be inclined to agree. If we can find proof that Windigo was actually distributed (it seems to have been - it's listed as an "independent film" on IMDB - but I don't have the subscription service to see all its information, and the fact that it's a found footage film means the amateur quality can either be amateur or deliberate) then we can move it back to film, but for now, I'll tip my hat towards moving them to Fan Works to keep them as together as possible.
I also know nothing about Jeff the Killer, so I can't comment on those, unfortunately.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Dec 10th 2022 at 8:22:06 AM
That is technically correct, though things get really messy when we talk about Public Domain works. Which aren't technically filed under Fan Works.
If I may chime in on the Slenderman media ?
As far as I can find, Windigo is considered an "official" movie, listed as an independant film on the mythos wiki but isn't considered "canon" by the mythos.
With that said, the Mythos "canon" was pretty loose, even more so than the Cthulhu Mythos. The the baseline canon is Tribe Twelve, Marble Hornets and Everyman HYBRID (with Dark Harvest being considered the fourth of the "big three").
They'd often collaborate with other creators in their ARG's, leading to cameos, full on crossovers or simple easter eggs; though lumping all those shows into one canon can lead to severe continuity snarls.
As far as I know, Victor Surge, the creator and copyright owner to Slenderman isn't involved in any of the productions, save for co-writing Slender: The Arrival (along with Marble Hornets writers) and has a producers credit in Always Watching: A Marble Hornets Story.
TLDR: Everything I can find points to the Windigo movie being an independant movie, but is not considered a fan film. I'm still looking into the 2013 movie, but I know it had a kickstarter to fund it, which to me leans to being a fan film.
Edited by Beast on Dec 10th 2022 at 5:45:07 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Alright, to start off, from Silent Hill there's this guy who I think needs to be looked at again:
- Sinner's Reward: Michael "Mad Dog" Stanton, the abusive father of Jack "The Pup" Stanton, only appeared in one flashback, but proved himself to be the one responsible for Jack's misfortunes. Wanting his son to follow in his footsteps as contract hitman, Michael sadistically forces Jack to kill his own dog when he was only eight, beating him for hesitating. Traumatizing the poor boy for life, Michael succeeds in creating a cold-blooded killer out of Jack, who goes on to kill many people, innocent or otherwise, which, in the end, results in Jack's suicide, in an attempt to escape "Mad Dog's" influence.
As far as I can tell Mad Dog's issue is the same that disqualified the father of the serial killer from The Cell, in that while the parental abuse is monstrous and inarguably helps warp the affected child into a serial killer, the parent themselves does not automatically get credit for their offspring's own murders. Mad Dog himself does not kill any human characters during the events of the comic. He kills some animals to traumatize his son, but beyond that lacks a body count, and that's a problem in a series like Silent Hill which is pitch-black and replete with awful human killers.
Conversation on the original thread appears to begin here
where a user questions if he was heinous enough. Another user argues that Mad Dog's effect on his son is tangible enough to accredit all of Jack's actions to him
, but another user counterargues that the comic still assigns Jack moral responsibility for his own murders
. The conversation stagnates without votes in either direction for a while another user rewrites him on this page
. The rewritten entry is submitted (without, as far as I can tell, proper approval or rebuttal of the above counterarguments).
Mad Dog is evil and he's not fully an Unwitting Instigator of Doom in the way the abusive dad from The Cell was, but I think the heinous standard of the series is too skewed for him to truly stand out, especially since the comic doesn't necessarily seem to credit Mad Dog for all of his son's actions.
I'm saying "cut." What do we say?
Heyo, been lurking, will probably pitch in every so often on here and since I do enjoy the Mythos myself I thought I'd pop in.
Specifically I need to draw attention to Marble Hornets, which actually isn't technically a Slender Man series because their monster is not Slender Man, they have The Operator, who was based on the original Slender Man images but altered for their videos. EMH and Tribe Twelve then based their versions of Slender Man on The Operator, but Marble Hornets was always considered to be a separate universe, especially since the other ones (EMH, Tribe Twelve, Dark Harvest, Stan Fredrickson, Keratin Garden, ML Anderson, etc) all had crossovers and MH only crossed over with the other THAC series (Clear Lakes 44 and ECKVA).
I'm only saying this because it might be relevant for figuring out to do with Always Watching, which is an adaptation of Marble Hornets, and also uses The Operator rather than Slender Man.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 10th 2022 at 8:53:30 AM
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallAbout Pantheon, nobody counts, Ajid Prasad was forcefully turning people into Ai through cutting their skulls open and programming them against their will but he loved his family
Vinod Chanda was planning to rule humanity through fear, but he’s too tragic to qualify as he was turned into an Ai against his will and he genuinely loves his mother.
Season 2 has been confirmed so we’ll see if anyone counts there.
Edited by Mediawatcher on Dec 10th 2022 at 6:04:27 AM
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I’m aware of this, but Always Watching took to enough liberties that separates it from the Marble Hornets series.
To the extent it’s take on the Operator is considered an In Name Only take on the character - and again, Victor Surge apparently was more involved with the production, as opposed to anyone who worked on MH. Not helping is that they don’t even call the Operator by "his" name.
From what I seen, it seemed like the creators just wanted to make a Slenderman movie, and slapped on Marble Hornets title to attract fans.
Edited by Beast on Dec 10th 2022 at 6:03:17 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Is Complete Monster cleanup back up? If the sandboxes are a go again, am I allowed to redo the killcounts sandbox, as well as the CMs with multiple actors/directors?
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsWe cut those sandboxes cause they were deemed unnecessary, you can create the lists on your own and separate from here, but they're not coming back
"We'll meet again" | 🏳️⚧️@ Beast: Hmmmm, then yeah that's tricky.
I guess it depends on what you consider the mythos, because since these are a bunch of mostly unrelated works that only have the same monster in common, slapping them under one page might not make sense though I guess we already sort of do it anyway.
IDK. Just something to consider I guess if moving the examples around does eventually become a big issue.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

Alright as I promised here is the list.
The only one I know that is officially licensed is Slender: The Arrival, the Web Video ones are in a weird spot. But Windigo and The Movie are not remotely official yet aren't in Fan Works.
There are two other cases that I want to mention that are related but not Slender Man themed.
Mr. Betty Krueger's Jeff the Killer audio dramas is in Fan Works while the JTK thing is in Web Serial Novels which makes nearly no sense they should really both be in the same place.