Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
ACW: Stargirl should go on DC Series. It is not really part of the Arrowverse at all.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Ok. If anyone wants to bring up said villain, please spoiler mark it because, from what I can tell, they’re a spoiler villain and I wanna wait just a little longer to play the game.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Caesar
Btw I'm gonna put myself down for Bret Easton Ellis's new novel The Shards if no one minds!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
There is a small edit I would like to make to Rorge's entry from A Song of Ice and Fire:
- Rorge is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer—especially of children—and the worst of the Brave Companions, his cruelty even exceeding their leader, Vargo Hoat. Freed along with his companion Biter, Rorge signs on with the "Bloody Mummers" after Arya Stark saves him from certain death, to which he responds by threatening to sodomize her with her own wooden sword. After the Brave Companions capture Jaime and Brienne, Rorge attempts to rape Brienne and threatens to injure her further if she screams. After Hoat's death, Rorge leads a band of brigands on the raid on Saltpans, resulting in the massacre of nearly the entire town. Rorge personally kills 20 men and rapes a 12-year-old girl, mutilating her then giving the girl to his men to mutilate her further. Upon encountering Brienne again, Rorge expresses a desire to cut off her legs and have her watch him rape a 10-year-old girl. Additional material indicates that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs.
First, the part which says that Rorge threatens Brienne that if she screams, he would "injure her further" is really underselling his threat. Rorge tells her he would cut off her nose, pop out one of her eyes and force her to eat it and pull out her teeth one by one. I don't think we need to explain all of this in detail in the entry, but I would suggest replacing "injure her further" with "mutilate her face" because this sounds more horrific.
Also, I think it's worth mentioning that he doesn't just say he is going to rape the 10-year-old girl, but that he is going to rape her with her own crossbow.
So, like this:
- Rorge is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer—especially of children—and the worst of the Brave Companions, his cruelty even exceeding their leader, Vargo Hoat. Freed along with his companion Biter, Rorge signs on with the "Bloody Mummers" after Arya Stark saves him from certain death, to which he responds by threatening to sodomize her with her own wooden sword. After the Brave Companions capture Jaime and Brienne, Rorge attempts to rape Brienne and threatens to mutilate her face if she screams. After Hoat's death, Rorge leads a band of brigands on the raid on Saltpans, resulting in the massacre of nearly the entire town. Rorge personally kills 20 men and rapes a 12-year-old girl, mutilating her then giving the girl to his men to mutilate her further. Upon encountering Brienne again, Rorge expresses a desire to cut off her legs and have her watch him rape a 10-year-old girl with a crossbow. Additional material indicates that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs.
Edited by WatTambor on Jan 10th 2023 at 2:21:17 PM
Couldn’t hurt to add there!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Works for me.
So, with potholes:
- Rorge is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer—especially of children—and the worst of the Brave Companions, his cruelty even exceeding their leader, Vargo Hoat. Freed along with his companion Biter, Rorge signs on with the "Bloody Mummers" after Arya Stark saves him from certain death, to which he responds by threatening to sodomize her with her own wooden sword. After the Brave Companions capture Jaime and Brienne, Rorge attempts to rape Brienne and threatens to mutilate her face if she screams. After Hoat's death, Rorge leads a band of brigands on the raid on Saltpans, resulting in the massacre of nearly the entire town. Rorge personally kills 20 men and rapes a 12-year-old girl, mutilating her then giving the girl to his men to mutilate her further. Upon encountering Brienne again, Rorge expresses a desire to cut off her legs and have her watch him rape a 10-year-old girl—with the latter's own crossbow. Additional material indicates that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs.
Not the Eye
Yes to Rorge rewrite.
It's kinda edgy but idk if there's much that can be done about that when summing up Rorge's villainy. It's kind of his thing even in ASOIAF.
Edited by 43110 on Jan 10th 2023 at 7:49:11 AM
Definitely support the Stargirl CM expansion. Shame it had to end, it was one of the better DC live action shows.
Professor Gigachad
So I got two villains from the TV Series Blue Bloods that I am really questioning if they actually count.
- "The Life We Chose": The Phantom, real name Donald Washington, is a cold-blooded crack dealer and murderer. In the beginning of the episode he ruthlessly shoots detective Cruz and kills Detective Gates, who pleads that he has three kids and to which the Phantom replies "Too bad for them". This shocks even his own cohort who was only planning on robbing them. The Phantom would later kill his cohort when he didn't need him anymore. He later goes after other members of Task Force Apache, the police sting that sold him out planning on killing all of them to keep his drug dealing business running smoothly. Greedy and wishing to make his vile business run smoothly, he cares for no one but himself and is an utter psychopath.
So this guy has killing two detectives planning to kind an unstated number of members of a task force, running a drug business and killing one of his cohorts. For a crime show, this guy is really not pushing it much especially since all of his victims with one exception are detectives who are actively trying to catch him. That is what you expect from all villains in this kind of genre considering detectives are the main characters and they are willing to do anything to not go to jail. He really doesn't seem to be pushing the envelope for the genre.
- "Working Girls": Uri Denko is a ruthless Arms Dealer who Erin is prosecuting. A cold-blooded sadist who has no problem executing a man's wife in front of him in their living room over a business dispute. He would later threaten the man's children in a courtroom outburst to scare him into not testifying but still has him killed anyway after the threats scare him into running. He then puts out a hit on the surviving witness and hounds her mercilessly even going so far as going after her grandmother back in Russia as well. A sociopath of the highest order, he would step on anyone who gets in his way.
So this guy is already scrapping the bottom of the barrel, to begin with, he has only 3 murders, one of which being only slightly nastier than average with the whole "killing in front of a loved one" thing, and he also has threatening the children of a witness but he never seems to make any attempt at actually doing this rendering it just a threat. Like for his genre this is really minuscule, especially considering his resource level. And when the series has two serial rapist/killers as well a gang leader with an insane number of deeds.
The only thing I can see possibly keeping him is the whole Arms Dealer thing. But the write-up never gives any info on what exactly that entails. Like who does he sell to and what ends up happening as a result of that? I wouldn't know because the write up says nothing about it.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jan 10th 2023 at 7:12:33 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Oh, yeah, compared to the guy I got from that? they don't scratch it
Sure cut the two Blue Bloods baddie
Best Smile
Cut Phantom & Uri.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
To Rorge's rewrite.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Blue Bloods duo.
Cut Phantom and Denko
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Cut Blue Bloods duo
Fine with the Rorge tweaks.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright here's another character I think has one minute issue, Silas.
Thankfully heinousness isn't an issue IMO but his final moments might be?
After he merges with Breakdown ,Silas tries to ally with Megatron, he fails with his showcase and Megatron has him sent to be experimented on by Knock-Out for his failure (it's a glorious Kick The Son Of A Bitch moment.)
In his final episode, it's shown that Silas is being experimented on by Knock-Out and Starscream then mixes Dark Energon within Breakdown's body, causing it to go feral and start infecting the Decepticion soldiers. On his rampage, Silas ends up releasing Airachnid after sensing energon from her stasis pod. After a tussle Airachnid manages to pin down Breakdown's body and attempts to remove his spark, revealing to her Silas' dying body. While Airachnid condescendingly thanks for her release, Silas replies with a genuine sounding "No thank you" before expiring. Airachnid's response? Whatever.
Is it an Alas, Poor Villain moment? It's subjective per person but Silas thanking Airachnid for ending his misery sounded genuine so I'm not sure how we handle that for C Ms?
EDIT: This is the same guy who was saved from death by his own allies by merging with Breakdown and responded with this in a Faux Affably Evil tone before killing them all.
Also highly recommend the show lmao.
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 10th 2023 at 7:18:20 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Goku Black
I was actually meaning to bring those two from blue floods up for cutting. Like they were fine for the early seasons but the show has gone so long (15 years that I think they've been left in the /dust).
Like the new season contains a guy I want to bring up who is a cartel hitman who organsihes a 17 man massacre of a rival organisation and plans to flood the entire of New York with cocaine laced with Fentayl. Something the episode even says would kill untold number of people.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not the Eye
Cut Blue Bloods duo. Unsure on Silas, lean a cut for now.
Goku Black
With Silas. Didn't this come up before. I think the issue is that Silas mind had completely broken at that point by due to the torture to the point he would have said/done anything to at least die at that point.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Wasn't he already dying when he said thankyou?
Not saying cut but maybe this could be talked about more.
The First man
Caesar
Yeah, I questioned that about Silas myself back in my early days on the thread, it's tough cuz yeah he's showing what appears to be genuine gratitude...but the form that takes is him being put out of his misery from an And I Must Scream situation where his mind is obviously broken and he behaves nothing like himself before the torture, just lumbering around like a half-dead zombie begging for death.
I think the comparison with his teammates saving his life resulting in Ungrateful Bastard murdering of them all is a decent counter to it being redeeming, tbh. Silas before months of horrid, mind-breaking torment's response to someone saving his life is to wipe them all out...only after he's been mentally decimated does he offer some words of gratitude to Airachnid for ending his suffering.
I definitely think there's some genuine pity to be had for him in that moment, but the guy is such a dickwad monster before the horrid torture that I think ascribing a couple words of gratitude for putting him out of his misery to his current fucked up mental state probably prevents it from being truly disqualifying.
Edited by Ravok on Jan 11th 2023 at 5:53:18 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Haven't seen the show but leaning cut on Silas
If he was brainwashed, I would have been fine with keeping, but this doesn't seem to be the case, he was just horribly tortured. Even if his mind was shattered at that point, the fact he expresses gratitude without being brainwashed indicates that there might have been some good in him even before the torture and it just took him being horribly tortured and reduced to a pathetic state to be revealed.
And cut the Blue Bloods duo.
Edited by WatTambor on Jan 11th 2023 at 5:30:30 PM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
It doesn't help me that he's saying a genuine thank you to Airachnid, someone he knows is a sadistic sociopath extraordinaire, while she's quite obviously condescendingly saying thanks to him.
Eh I'm not sure what to think because this is literally his dying words, not something that he subverts later.
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 11th 2023 at 2:32:22 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Oh no. Nobody keeps at all. Only bad guy has uh issues to say the least....
Their is going to be a Dl C of course so who knows from their.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 10th 2023 at 12:13:19 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."