TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

SignificantGreenEyedRedhead's significance

Go To

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#1: Dec 4th 2022 at 9:31:57 PM

Significant Green-Eyed Redhead was renamed and retooled from Green-Eyed Redhead but I don't really think that helped the trope in terms of tropeworthiness. I don't think writers are necessarily making characters green eyed redheads to mark as important—it's just a common combination that's done because it's striking. I think Redhead in Green already covers this personally. I plan to do a wick check but I wanted to see if there's anything to the trope that justifies it's existence.

Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 29th 2023 at 9:37:49 AM

Macron's notes
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Dec 5th 2022 at 2:42:30 AM

Redhead in Green is about clothing though, and everybody can wear any clothing colour they like. Whereas people can't change their eye colour.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#3: Dec 5th 2022 at 5:10:21 AM

I know it's about clothing but I think having a redhead with green eyes established the same effect and I am not convinced that it's storytelling importance.

Macron's notes
Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#4: Dec 5th 2022 at 5:37:56 AM

Doesn't help that the "Significant" in Significant Green-Eyed Redhead is really vague. It can be taken to mean that a plot-relevant character happens to have those hair + eye colors, and not that the particular hair + eye color combination has any significance on its own.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5: Dec 5th 2022 at 8:38:33 AM

The trope is that in fiction, the combination of red hair and green eyes is far more common than reality. It's a Trope in Aggregate, a statistical anomaly. "Significant" is vague on purpose, because the trope is about a pattern, not about a specific narrative purpose.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#6: Dec 5th 2022 at 8:43:26 AM

That's not what the trope description is about though. If I am not misreading anything, it's about how green and read hair mark a character as striking are important in someway. If it's supposed to a trope in aggregate about green eyed redheads being more common in fiction that's not being communicated very well.

Macron's notes
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#7: Dec 5th 2022 at 8:51:51 AM

I don't agree; it does say

Green-eyed redheads are one the rarest color combinations found in humanity (with the exception of some abnormalities), making a character with this combination highly conspicuous.
and if memory serves, the "significant" part was added mostly because at that time the concept of a Trope in Aggregate wasn't well-established.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#8: Dec 5th 2022 at 8:58:59 AM

Why is it limited to main character then? If it's a trope in aggregate, does the role of the character really matter? The character being important and notable is part of the trope otherwise it wouldn't be emphasized in the description.

Edited by MacronNotes on Dec 5th 2022 at 12:01:15 PM

Macron's notes
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#9: Dec 7th 2022 at 1:34:01 AM

I think that the description is trying to say that the creator is choosing this striking appearance as a "Pay attention: This one is important!" It then spends a good bit of the description space deliberately squashing out other striking phenotype combinations. (Really? A line-item blocking out World of Technicolor Hair, and then another comment about why Magenta and Pink are not Red?)

The on-page examples, at least, seem to skew toward "Main character happens to have this phenotype."

I'm wondering if the actual, tropable thing is "Striking phenotype is used to signal Notice This regarding a character" IE, a prose media example would not just include the description, but how the work contrasts/compares with peers to draw our & character attention. Maybe an inversion of The Nondescript?

Edited by underCoverSailsman on Dec 7th 2022 at 3:34:35 AM

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#10: Dec 7th 2022 at 4:23:15 AM

Problem is, what Septimus says [up][up][up] suggests that what it's really saying is "green-eyed redheads exist, but it's totally significant and totally indicates that the character's totally important you guys". So we'd need a usage check to see how many examples mean even that much. Your suggested trope may need to be launched from scratch.

Edited by MorganWick on Dec 7th 2022 at 4:24:38 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#11: Dec 7th 2022 at 4:38:39 AM

I'll setup the wick check today after I get home.

Macron's notes
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#12: Dec 7th 2022 at 7:26:33 PM

[up][up]Entirely possible. It just feels a lot more tropable than... whatever this is. It'll be interesting to see what the wick check shows.

Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#13: Dec 7th 2022 at 10:34:24 PM

Although if we turn this into a Trope in Aggregate, do we really need to document "things that are more common in fiction than IRL" unless it also play into other tropes?

For example, Always Identical Twins works as a TIA, because a lot of Twin Tropes that these characters often employ simply doesn't work with fraternal twins. But what's noteworthy about a work featuring a(n important) character with red hair and green eyes rather than some equally rare if not impossible combinations? Wasn't this sort of meaningless trivia the reason why we cut Rare Guns and Rare Vehicles?

Edited by Adept on Dec 8th 2022 at 1:34:55 AM

Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#14: Dec 7th 2022 at 11:21:07 PM

The connotations of green eyes (wild or close to nature, jealous) align well to the connotations of red hair (passionate/volatile, attractive, unconventional). And the fact that both are rare traits gives someone with both Uniqueness Value.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#15: Dec 8th 2022 at 12:51:11 AM

Seems like the Rare Guns TRS didn't consider Trope in Aggregate at all, which, to be perfectly honest, is a bit sloppy.

The problem with many Tropes in Aggregate cases is that "X is overrepresented in fiction, relative to reality" isn't represented well by example lists that consist only in instances of X in any work of fiction. That is one of the reasons why Most Common Superpower only permits examples that explicitly discuss the trope, instead of listing all instances of women with large breasts in comics.

In the case of Significant Green-Eyed Redhead though, the trope's a stylization trope. These don't need to "play into other tropes" to apply. It's a trope because authors use it much more frequently than it occurs in real life.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#16: Dec 8th 2022 at 10:14:27 PM

I think a better comparison would be Dark Skinned Redhead and Dark Skinned Blond, which TRS also recently cut because "rare phenotype" was deemed not tropeworthy.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#17: Dec 10th 2022 at 3:36:17 PM

The trope is originally about how red hair and green eyes are used as a flag to say the character is plot important in some way. However, I think underCoverSailsman is correct and the real trope is probably more accurately described as works having a character with a significant phenotype by the standards of the setting it's in, which marks out the character as plot important in some fashion.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 10th 2022 at 3:58:33 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18: Dec 10th 2022 at 4:09:13 PM

Like I said in the DB/DSR thread, I agree with the "striking phenotype" thing being the goal. I don't know if that's tropeworthy, or if it neatly translates to plot importance.

Thought question: the page quote and the song on the quotes page both use this combo to describe a strikingly beautiful woman. Is that any different in intent and execution from (say) a song extolling a blue-eyed blonde, or someone with dark hair and eyes?

Edited by Synchronicity on Dec 10th 2022 at 6:12:51 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#19: Dec 10th 2022 at 4:32:30 PM

I noticed that it lists Firestar from Warrior Cats as an example, despite that he's, well... a cat. Admittedly his pelt color is plot-relevant and does make him stand out as a bright ginger tom surrounded by cats with mostly brown or gray pelts, but his eyes being green doesn't seem to mean much and given that he's a cat I'm not sure we can even apply the "rare phenotype" thing to it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#20: Dec 10th 2022 at 5:38:57 PM

Well, I think it's more about "rare" to the setting. Take Oz Vessalius, for example. His golden hair and green eyes just screams at everyone and is the single biggest flag for what's driving the plot, but he's not the only character in the setting with that combination, it's just his specific combinations are striking for a very specific reason that most people who have the right knowledge can figure out the second they lay eyes on him.

Ironically, in real life, the rarest hair/eye colour combination of all isn't even red and green, it's actually red and blue.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 10th 2022 at 5:40:50 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#21: Dec 10th 2022 at 5:40:46 PM

It's def not rare in the setting, especially once the world grows and we learn more about the setting. Firestar wasn't treated as having a rare pelt color, it was because it was the color of fire and there was a prophecy about fire so he was The Chosen One. But there are already ginger cats in the Clan, they're just described as "pale ginger" or "golden" instead.

So the significance comes from the prophecy, which was just a handy way of telling the leader which kittypet would be the hero.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 10th 2022 at 8:41:56 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#22: Dec 10th 2022 at 5:42:14 PM

Yeah, so he's got a striking manifestation of something that would otherwise have been normal and there are some factors involved that mean other characters won't overlook it? That's a bit like the Oz example I used, where something occurred in history that makes his specific appearance plot significant.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 10th 2022 at 5:43:00 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#23: Dec 10th 2022 at 5:47:29 PM

Yeah, his appearance is significant insofar as it signaling that he may be the "fire" destined to save the Clan. That's where it starts and ends though, and the prophecy was made after he was born so it's more likely that it was based on his pelt color than that he was born ginger Because Destiny Says So. His fur came first.

My point here is that Firestar's coloring is significant for destiny and plot reasons, but his being ginger and green-eyed specifically is sort of a coincidence and doesn't actually mean much of anything.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 10th 2022 at 8:47:47 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#24: Dec 10th 2022 at 7:20:33 PM

[up][up]With the Oz example, the specific color combination (blonde + green eyes) doesn't seem to be particularly important as much as it is simply "distinct from everyone else", so it wouldn't have mattered if he has black hair and black eyes, or purple hair and pink eyes so long as no one else possess that particular color combo.

Now I do admit that red hair is frequently associated with protagonists, especially in anime & manga. For example, the heroines of Dawn of the Arcana, Yona of the Dawn and Snow White with the Red Hair all have red hair, and their hair color is regarded by other characters as their most distinctive feature. In the former, the protagonist also has green eyes that is related to her powers, but AFAIK the other two's eye colors are never mentioned.

In any case, I think the tropeworthiness of this concept might also be related to previous hair color tropes that had been cut, i.e. You Gotta Have Blue Hair, Multicolored Hair, and Skunk Stripe. You can argue that a character are given unrealistic hair colors to make them stand out (especially if every other characters have mundane/normal hair colors), but in practice they're just meaningless mentions of "Character X has Y hair color".

Edited by Adept on Dec 10th 2022 at 10:22:11 PM

Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#25: Dec 10th 2022 at 8:28:50 PM

Thought question: the page quote and the song on the quotes page both use this combo to describe a strikingly beautiful woman. Is that any different in intent and execution from (say) a song extolling a blue-eyed blonde, or someone with dark hair and eyes?

...yes, to the extent that they are likely to be characterised differently. Green eyes are wild and envious, red hair is passionate and independent, so the combination is intensely free-spirited.

When I have the chance I should go check through Colour Coded Eyes and Hair Colours to test my suspicion. If I'm right, other stereotypical combinations should emerge just from listing all the physical features associated with a particular personality trait.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO

Total posts: 55
Top