To-do list:
- Widow Woman has been disambiguated and Determined Widow has been redirected there, so move examples that fit a trope elsewhere, and remove examples that are simply about widows existing.
Determined Widow's description loosely summarized is "A Damsel in Distress that is a widow who often falls in love with a hero and is common in the Western Genre." At face value, comes off as Same But More Specific: Damsel in Distress + Romancing the Widow, and it's not really clear how being a widow matters to the classic Damsel in Distress trope.
But the wick check shows a bigger issue: none of the wicks follow that definition. The majority are some version of "this character is a widow/became a widow" and that's it, which I guess would fall under Widow Woman. There are a few that fall under Taking Up the Mantle / Take Up My Sword (listing both because in most cases the widows do this independent of their deceased spouse telling them to do so, which falls under Taking Up the Mantle, however that trope is written as if it's superhero exclusive whereas Take Up My Sword is written to fit more situations). And then others seem like they're trying to suggest a tough, hardened, determinator widow archetype, i.e. husband dying made them tougher because they had to be tougher to keep everything together.
Here's the wick check snapshot:
- Just "Is a Widow" (Widow Woman?) - 24 (48%)
- Determinator/ Hardened Tough Widow Archetype - 4 (8%)
- Take Up the late husband's cause (Taking Up the Mantle / Take Up My Sword) - 7 (14%)
- Crusading Widow - 3 (6%)
- Romancing the Widow - 1 (2%)
- ZCE - 11 (22%)
Widow Woman however has its own issue. Specifically, 1) I'm not certain "being a widow" in of itself is tropeworthy and 2) it's not clear if Widow Woman even is a trope or an index: it has no examples, is a broad summary of a dubiously tropeworthy role, but is of the trope page type. I asked about this on Trope Talk whether this was a trope, an example-less super trope, or an index, and didn't get much clarfication either way.
College Widow on the other hand is a more straightforward case of a starving trope. Been around since 2008, only 23 examples (10 of which are actual examples), but it's explicitly a Forgotten Trope, so it's unclear if it being starving is even a bad thing / something that needs correcting.
So what to do?
Seeing as none of the examples for Determined Widow fit the definition, this trope can't stay as is, obviously, but the solutions I can think of are kind of dependent on what happens to Widow Woman / whether or not we think "being a widow" is a tropeworthy concept. Some possible courses of actions:
- If it's not tropeworthy:
- Widow Woman is turned into a proper index / gets merged with existing indices (The Singles Index and/or The Ex Index)
- Determined Widow gets diambiguated between Determinator, Romancing the Widow, Taking Up the Mantle / Take Up My Sword, and other widow tropes.
- "Hardened Widow Archetype" gets yarded.
- If it is tropeworthy:
- Widow Woman becomes a Super-Trope for all widow tropes. This would require a rewrite. Still need to decide whether or not it's exampleless or not, but if it can take examples, it can have Internal Subtropes, in which case:
- Merge Determined Widow into Widow Woman as is and add examples to Widow Woman's page.
- "Hardened Widow Archetype" still gets yarded.
- If it remains exampleless though, Determined Widow still needs to get disambiguated for the misuse.
- Widow Woman becomes a Super-Trope for all widow tropes. This would require a rewrite. Still need to decide whether or not it's exampleless or not, but if it can take examples, it can have Internal Subtropes, in which case:
As for College Widow, we just need to decide whether certain designations like Forgotten Trope and some of those listed on Discredited Trope are protected classes in which our typical metrics for deciding action should no longer apply.
- If yes, then nothing need be done (though we might need a larger discussion in trope talk / wiki talk to decide which tropes this should apply to and how far this goes)
- If no, then again, depends on what becomes of Widow Woman:
- if WW gets cut, turned into a proper index, or merged into other indices, there's no real place for this to go so it should probably get cut for being Too Rare to Trope
- If WW becomes a supertrope with examples, this can be merged into it as an Internal Subtrope. But if no examples, then again, cut.
I'm torn, tbh. I think all options are fair solutions in their own way.
Wick check:
Definition: A Damsel in Distress and Love Interest that's a Widow, typically in the Western Genre.Wicks Checked 50
- Just "Is a Widow" (Widow Woman?) - 24 (48%)
- Determinator/ Hardened Tough Widow Archetype - 4 (8%)
- Take Up the late husband's cause (Taking Up the Mantle / Taking Up Sword) - 7 (14%)
- Crusading Widow - 3 (6%)
- Romancing the Widow - 1 (2%)
- ZCE - 11 (22%)
- Fuller House: The series starts a year after her husband, Tommy, passed away. A non-Western-genre version, but holds some of the same traits.
- The Ring - Books: She carried on after her husband's death, taking care of her sick son despite knowing full well that he will not make it without a cure. And her life after Kaoru's decision to return to LOOP can be considered a second widowhood, as well, since she vows to raise her baby in new world that Kaoru has sacrificed his life to make.
- Timeline 191 United States of America: Her first husband was the one who ultimately set her free from her previous occupation, taking responsibility for her daughter and setting up the family business. Sadly, he did not live long after Enda's birth.
- The Magnificent Seven (1998): Mary is this, after her husband is killed. It's why she stays in the town.
- StreetPass Mii Plaza: Male version. After completing Dr. Heynen's job In Loving Memory with a perfect rating, Ms. Blossom reveals that his wife died young due to an illness she had. Since then, he dedicated his life to becoming a doctor and making sure that people live long lives so they don't suffer the same fate she did.
- The Squire's Tales: Sarah essentially becomes this after Alexander's murder, though he died before the wedding.
- Moonlight Becomes You: Maggie was widowed around five years prior to the story; her husband Paul was in the navy and was killed in a training accident. Although she clearly misses him and is occasionally saddened by things that remind her of him, Maggie goes about her life as normal and has even started dating again. She notes at one point that for years she kept her hair and make-up the way Paul liked it, but since last year has started wearing both differently.
- There Was a Crooked Man...: After escaping, Pitman tries to steals a horse from a widow. She catches him and threatens him with a gun.
- None Shall Escape: Marja mentions at the beginning of her testimony that her husband was killed during the Nazi invasion of Poland. She spends the rest of the movie being pretty openly hostile to the Nazis, Wilhelm in particular.
- Thief: Deadly Shadows: Despite her relatives and servants thinking they can manipulate her to their own ends, she's defiant to their ulterior motives and insincere pandering even after her husband's death. She's even a bit of a Disabled Snarker.
- The Strain TV Series Main: Combined with a bit of Take Up My Sword. She tells Eph that her husband died on 9/11, and it inspired her into public service.
- The First Law Union Citizens: Married a far older man to pay off her father's debt, and gradually took over his responsibilities in the Guild of Spicers as his health declined. After his death, she effectively inherited his title as a Magister.
- Supernatural: The Winchesters — My Heart Will Go On: She takes news of John's death hard following her resurrection and takes the wrong help from the wrong people, shunning her sons in favor of the Big Bad. Her role in Season 12 is to show her attempts to properly move on and thus become a Determined Widow.
- Star Wars - The Partisans: Her husband died distracting Imperial troops so that she and Sienna could escape. You can find his corpse in a cave on Zeffo; doing so before your first meeting with her unlocks an alternate conversation between her and Cal.
- Saving Grace: Grace becomes a lot more confident and sure of her self over the course of the movie.
- Phantasy Star IV: The Compendium has a side note about her life after the game is over; at the time, it was just a footnote and some doodles, but the continuation of the series into the Online games seems to have made it canon: Chaz dies before he's 30, leaving Rika to formally join the Hunter's Guild and raise their half-Numan son.
- Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team: It only comes up in one scene, but her husband was a doctor. It's unclear whether he was killed during the One Week Battle or at some other point during the war.
- Legend of the Galactic Heroes: The Free Planets Alliance: After Yang's death, she became the head of the government council for the self-proclaimed Iserlohn Republic.
- Hey Arnold! - The Adults: Part One: Back in Vietnam, he was raising Mai all by himself, his wife nowhere to be seen. (It's possible she fell victim to Death by Childbirth, but this is never confirmed.) After he comes to America, he spends a good amount of time searching for his daughter.
- Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones - Playable Characters: Queen Ismaire - She took over as ruler when her husband died. As the ruler of Jehanna is also the high guildmaster of all of the mercenary guilds in the country, this was no small feat.
- Fire Emblem Genealogy Of The Holy War Non Playable Characters: Does what's in her hands to keep Silesse stable after losing her husband/Lewyn's dad (and the one with major Forseti blood).
- Ceres, Celestial Legend: She got herself back onto her feet and took care of Yuuhi. She also joins Aya's quest to find a celestial robe and take on the Mikage family, though she mostly remains in the background and only researches things.
- Boardwalk Empire Other Characters: She finances her political activities with the money left to her by her late husband, an oil tycoon.
- Devil May Cry - Other — Widow Woman: Depending on if you believe Sparda to truly be dead. Certain continuities have Eva as a Determined Widow.
- The Legend of Mother Sarah: Sarah is a typical Determined Widow: strong-willed, devoted to her family, unafraid to stand alone, usally composed and in control of her emotions.
- When Calls the Heart: She tragically lost her husband in the mining accident. She never gives up despite her losses.
- Ed, Edd n Eddy - Unseen Characters: Still helps with the family farm despite her husband having passed on since immigrating. Rolf refers to his departed grandfather as "Nano".
- Death in Paradise: His wife passed away just a month before he's introduced on the show but he refuses to let others feel sorry for him and puts up a cheerful front, initially talking as though she died a year ago rather than a month. He takes the Honoré job because it presents him with the opportunity to take a step away from London and all the locations he associates with his wife, eventually returning to London when he feels like he's ready to face those memories again.
- The Crown Atomic: Soong Ching-ling, Sun Yat-sen's widow, still struggles for the cause of her husband and becomes President of China.
- 1632: Landgravine Amalie Elizabeth of Hesse-Kassel, when her husband Wilhelm is killed in a later book. Unlike most German noblewomen of the time — or German nobles of the time, for that matter — she is possessed of quite a formidable brain, and she uses it ruthlessly to carry on her husband's work with the USE's Crown Loyalist party.
- Journey to the Center of the Earth (1959): Carla Göteborg falls into this role before her husband is even in the ground, declaring her intentions to continue his work by joining his rival's expedition.
- Westworld: Humans: Even though she doesn't know about Caleb's death, she still believes that he's alive somewhere. She continues her husband's mission for a free world by leading the human resistance which is composed of outliers.
- Shuumatsu No Walkure Record Of Ragnarok Valkyries And Other Characters: After Adam's death, she (along with her direct children and the rest of humankind) remain determined to win the tournament, showing her last respects to her husband while she prays for him.
- Orphan Black: The Proletheans: Was made The Leader of the Proletheans' New Order following her husband's death.
- GL - Green Lantern Corps: She took the legacy of her husband and became a GL in her own right.
- Vengeful Beauty: Qiu-yan will stop at nothing to avenge her husband’s death while pregnant with her first child.
- Different Tales, Different Lessons: Played with but mostly subverted. While Xiulan is absolutely determined, does have a child to live for, and would very much like to avenge her husband, she spent most of the original novel as an antagonist, because the protagonist was the one who made her a widow (twice, she thinks). She did become a target of the Big Bad's—but by being put through Demonic Possession and More than Mind Control so as to inadvertently become his servant, so that even as she was distressed she also caused distress for others. In the end, however, she does decide to live on and let go of her hate, because Zhuang makes it clear to her how much he wants this and how much her future happiness and Yi's depends on it. And while she won't be going on to fight herself, nor is she carrying on Zhuang's work, she does agree to let Yi spend time with Tai Lung as his god-daughter and eventually train in kung fu with him, all things Zhuang would want or which would bring about the peace and forgiveness he embraced in life.
- The Realms Within: Alagost: After Otis is murdered, she becomes fixated on hunting down his killer while keeping the Swamp Snakes' business afloat.
- Batalha dos Guararapes: Ana Paes, a homestead owner who became massively indebted following her husband's death and becomes Joăo's love interest.
- The Bible — Ruth
- Hell on Wheels: Lily Bell again. She is the perfect embodiment of this trope.
- The Lords of Creation: Sally Yamashita was sent to mars with her husband, a fairly standard arrangement with Jeremy being one of the few exceptions. She's built herself into being the main go-between for American interests and the main martian culture and Jeremy is getting a crash course from her before he can be let off the reservation before the plot hits them. — not even clear if she's a widow
- Drums Along the Mohawk: Mrs. Mc Klennar is so intimidating that when the Mohawks come to burn her house, she actually gets them to take her bed downstairs instead of setting it on fire. She also takes part in the climactic battle, suffering a fatal wound in the breast from an arrow. — not even clear if she's a widow
- The Ghost and Mrs. Muir: Lucy is determined to live her own life in the manner that she chooses.
- 1632: Veronica Dreeson (verw. Richter, geb. Schusterin) works her way across war-torn Europe for the sake of reclaiming lost property, in 1635: The Bavarian Crisis. — not clear she's a widow
- Village Tales The Family: As of the midpoint of Evensong – and she makes no bones about its being a relief.
- 24 - Kamistan — Dalia Hassan
- Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas Gaiden: Her initial Intentions to seek power were good.
- Bakuten Shoot Beyblade Primary: The older version; that is, relative to her protagonist son. She's Daichi's Number 1 supporter for his sake and for Daigorō's legacy.
- Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers — Sherriff Bob Ladd
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 10th 2022 at 3:34:24 AM
- Determined Widow is an archetype in Western, the sole tough woman in town filled with Apathetic Citizens who is harassed by bandits and provides bed and exposition to the crusading cowboy and is a potential romance option. It feels like it's what the description is going for, but the name is not obvious. Maybe renaming and rewriting can help. Lack of contextualized examples, though, is a problem.
- I don't think Widow Woman is tropeworthy, and having 9-10 listed subtropes with no examples makes me think we can safely disambiguate/index between them.
- College Widow says it's a Forgotten Trope, so I doubt anything needs to be done with it. Due to lack of examples maybe it can be merged with something as an Internal Subtrope.
Edited by Amonimus on Dec 4th 2022 at 2:17:18 PM
Yeah the issue with DW is that whatever it's going for, clearly it's not being picked up by site users. If there is a distinct widow archetype that's specific to The Western, we can yard it / someone can take it to the TLP to collect proper examples and I don't mind adding that to the list of options for the future crowner. I'm just not sure if "toughened widow" need be The Western specific, though to be fair, I don't have a wide knowledge of the genre, thus the "hardened widow archetype" suggestion
Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 4th 2022 at 8:19:50 AM
The "Hardened Tough Widow Archetype" does sound tropeworthy that could maybe cover the "take up the husband mantle" examples as well.
Widow Woman does indeed not look tropeworthy, and despite the fact the page looks like an index it has a lot of wicks and it seem like it is being used as a "woman is a widow" trope. But I'm not sure if messing with that is on this thread's scope since there no wick check on that.
Edited by BlackMage43 on Dec 4th 2022 at 6:09:42 AM
I agree that Widow Woman isn't a trope and College Widow being a Forgotten Trope means we can leave it alone (since those are never going to have very many wicks due to their limited lifespan, so the lack of wicks is a feature and not a bug).
I think we can Yard Determined Widow as you mentioned since none of the examples match the definition.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 4th 2022 at 10:47:35 AM
Leave Forgotten Tropes alone plz, a presence on the wiki helps keep them be not-forgotten-entirely
+1 to detrope Widow Woman and Determined Widow and yard the hardened Western widow thing.
Voting won't start for a couple of days, but I'm putting on the mod hat to rule out doing anything to College Widow due to its status as a Forgotten Trope. As a result, this thread's scope has been narrowed slightly to only cover Determined Widow and Widow Woman.
Could we make something like "Widow's Woes" to specifically cover tragic widow stories, similar to Orphan's Ordeal?
Making new tropes is a TLP thing, not TRS. I don't see enough "Widow's Woes" examples in thread's scope to split from something.
no issue with this. I included it because afaik we don't have an official rule on Forgotten Tropes and I wasn't sure. We should add a note to Forgotten Trope about this to head off future actions on Forgotten Tropes since I can't imagine College Widow is alone in being technically in the Starvation range
Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 6th 2022 at 3:48:14 PM
It'll be time to make a crowner soon. Are these our options?
- Redirect Determined Widow to Crusading Widow
- Disambiguate Determined Widow between Determinator, Romancing the Widow, Taking Up the Mantle, Take Up My Sword, Crusading Widow, and possibly other tropes
- Redirect Determined Widow to The Singles Index
- Redirect Determined Widow to The Ex Index
- Redirect Widow Woman to The Singles Index regardless of what happens to Determined Widow
- Redirect Widow Woman to The Ex Index regardless of what happens to Determined Widow
- If Determined Widow is disambiguated, redirect Widow Woman to Determined Widow; otherwise, redirect Widow Woman to The Singles Index
- If Determined Widow is disambiguated, redirect Widow Woman to Determined Widow; otherwise, redirect Widow Woman to The Ex Index
- If Determined Widow is disambiguated, redirect Widow Woman to Determined Widow; otherwise, redirect Widow Woman to Crusading Widow
I omitted Yarding "Hardened Widow Archetype" because Yarding is a free action.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 6th 2022 at 5:11:27 AM
Redirecting either Widow Woman or Determined Widow to Crusading Widow was never mentioned and I wouldn't recommend it considering the overlap in examples is minimal.
And the causality is backwards, imo. Whatever happens to Widow Woman is independent of what happens to Determined Widow. However, if Widow Woman is salvaged/reworked into a trope, it'd be a Super-Trope for Determined Widow and Determined Widow can be redirected there or merged into it. Then again, I don't know if that matters all that much.
For Widow Woman:
- Cut Widow Woman
- Disambiguate across Widow Tropes (College Widow, Comforting the Widow, Black Widow, False Widow, Crusading Widow)
- Redirect to The Singles Index
- Redirect to The Ex Index
- Rework into a Super-Trope
For Determined Widow:
- If Widow Woman is kept as a Super-Trope, redirect to Widow Woman
- If not, disambiguate between Determinator, Romancing the Widow, Crusading Widow, Taking Up the Mantle, Take Up My Sword
Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 6th 2022 at 8:12:55 AM
All right, I'll scrap what I listed and go with your crowner options, because I think it looks better.
Hooked the crowner that was previously drafted.
Calling in favor of the following:
- Disambiguate Widow Woman between Widow Tropes (College Widow, Comforting the Widow, Black Widow, False Widow, Crusading Widow, and possibly others)
- Redirect Determined Widow to Widow Woman if Widow Woman is turned into a Super-Trope or disambiguation page
I made Widow Woman a disambig page. We can redirect Determined Widow there whenever.
Just need to deal with the wicks.
Pasting my edit reason for ease of access: Trope has been disambiguated per TRS
So I've dewicked plenty of tropes, but I don't think I've ever dewicked a trope that there was a "god" for in the Pantheon (see here). What do I do in this situation? Do I just delete the entire profile? DO I delete the wick and leave the profile untouched? Do I post about it on the pantheon forum and let them decide?
Edited by amathieu13 on Dec 10th 2022 at 5:08:17 AM
Post on the Pantheon thread. They're always pretty happy to deal with this themselves.
Ok, I posted there.
Cleared out all namespaces except Characters for Determined Widow. 133 wicks left for that one.
I went ahead and redirected Determined Widow to Widow Woman.
Edit: Also changed Widow Woman's page type from "trope" to "disambig" because that was overlooked.
Edit: Added a to-do list to the opening post, archived the wick check there, and pinned the header (though the header won't show up unless there ends up being a second page).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 10th 2022 at 3:35:40 AM
someone cleared out the remaining wicks for Determined Widow. All that remains are the ones for Widow Woman
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I took care of the remaining wicks for Determined Widow, but neglected to provide the thread with an update. I took care of a handful of Widow Woman wicks after that (mainly the Main/ wicks other than the Ambiguity Index one) and mentioning it in the thread slipped my mind after I took a break from dewicking.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 11th 2022 at 3:01:40 AM
Cleared out all of the name spaces for Widow Woman except for Characters. 376 wicks left
<300 remaining.
To-do list:
Determined Widow's description loosely summarized is "A Damsel in Distress that is a widow who often falls in love with a hero and is common in the Western Genre." At face value, comes off as Same But More Specific: Damsel in Distress + Romancing the Widow, and it's not really clear how being a widow matters to the classic Damsel in Distress trope.
But the wick check shows a bigger issue: none of the wicks follow that definition. The majority are some version of "this character is a widow/became a widow" and that's it, which I guess would fall under Widow Woman. There are a few that fall under Taking Up the Mantle / Take Up My Sword (listing both because in most cases the widows do this independent of their deceased spouse telling them to do so, which falls under Taking Up the Mantle, however that trope is written as if it's superhero exclusive whereas Take Up My Sword is written to fit more situations). And then others seem like they're trying to suggest a tough, hardened, determinator widow archetype, i.e. husband dying made them tougher because they had to be tougher to keep everything together.
Here's the wick check snapshot:
Widow Woman however has its own issue. Specifically, 1) I'm not certain "being a widow" in of itself is tropeworthy and 2) it's not clear if Widow Woman even is a trope or an index: it has no examples, is a broad summary of a dubiously tropeworthy role, but is of the trope page type. I asked about this on Trope Talk
whether this was a trope, an example-less super trope, or an index, and didn't get much clarfication either way.
College Widow on the other hand is a more straightforward case of a starving trope. Been around since 2008, only 23 examples (10 of which are actual examples), but it's explicitly a Forgotten Trope, so it's unclear if it being starving is even a bad thing / something that needs correcting.
So what to do?
Seeing as none of the examples for Determined Widow fit the definition, this trope can't stay as is, obviously, but the solutions I can think of are kind of dependent on what happens to Widow Woman / whether or not we think "being a widow" is a tropeworthy concept. Some possible courses of actions:
As for College Widow, we just need to decide whether certain designations like Forgotten Trope and some of those listed on Discredited Trope are protected classes in which our typical metrics for deciding action should no longer apply.
I'm torn, tbh. I think all options are fair solutions in their own way.
Wick check:
Definition: A Damsel in Distress and Love Interest that's a Widow, typically in the Western Genre.Wicks Checked 50
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 10th 2022 at 3:34:24 AM