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MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
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#1: Nov 18th 2022 at 2:16:44 PM

Nice Guy is a trope that trope that's been used for characters that are nice to some degree instead of character that are defined by their kindness (according to what I have been told anyways) . However, the description says that the trope is for genuinely nice characters but I don't think that clarifies things. There are plenty of genuinely nice characters that aren't defined by their niceness so the line between a character that happens to be nice and a character that's the definition of kindness/niceness/affability is blurred.

Nice Guy has been brought up a few times recently so I decided to finally start thewick check I said I was going to do two years ago. I'll have to check 173 wicks but I can make it there eventually with or without help. I am not confident with taking such an established trope to the TRS (if it comes to that) but I can't speak more on it until wick check is finished.


I am not sure what exactly counts as misuse anymore so I think I'll pose some scope related questions to figure it out.

  • If multiple characters fall under the Nice Guy trope, what makes each character's stand out?

  • Do certain flaw and vices like having a temper disqualify a character as being a nice guy?

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#2: Nov 18th 2022 at 4:56:11 PM

TBH I'm really not sure what we can even do here. We ruled out renaming Berserk Button and that trope had only slightly more wicks than Nice Guy, so what course of action could we realistically take?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Nov 18th 2022 at 7:56:46 AM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#3: Nov 18th 2022 at 4:59:46 PM

This is the thing; I don't know if there is an answer to the questions because Nice Guy really does just seem to be "a character defined by their kindness", not that they're the only one in the cast or something... just like how a work doesn't only have to have one Jerkass.

I agree that the trope is overused though, it shouldn't be for anyone who just so happens to be nice on occasion, and I'm also curious to know if the name is being confused with the other "nice guy" concept that people have brought up numerous times.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 18th 2022 at 7:59:58 AM

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MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
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#4: Nov 18th 2022 at 5:19:49 PM

Yeah, the reason why I stalled on making the wick check is because I knew there wasn't anything that could realistically be done and there's no way people would agree with getting rid of the trope and I do believe it's tropable... I am just concerned with how broad the scope is. I don't think TRS will do much but I'll still try to do the wick check even if that's infeasible. I can just start a clean up thread with or without the wick check anyways. I guess I'll just check for how the trope's used than checking for misuse because hard to identify unless the example is blatantly unfit.

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#5: Nov 18th 2022 at 6:18:52 PM

We could end up with Nice Guy as a D-O supertrope (since a protagonist and supporting characters will generally be nice/good). In that context, I'd say that one of the subtropes is The Hero.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#7: Nov 18th 2022 at 10:39:31 PM
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8: Nov 18th 2022 at 10:59:05 PM

Then The Hero needs to be cleaned of examples like John McClane, Nicholas Angel, Nate Ford, Roy Greenhilt, Jason Argonauts, etc. (Nate's entry describes him as an "antiheroic hero" so that may be misuse, but I wouldn't describe any of the others as unheroic despite sharing the character flaw of "prone to being a jerk toward their own allies".)

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#9: Nov 19th 2022 at 5:48:52 AM

Sorry for the tangent; yes, I think that The Hero could use a close examination as well, but that's mostly because the overlap of The Hero and The Protagonist (Hero Protagonist) is already Definition Only. Situations where a subtrope is DO and the Supertrope isn't are suspicious to me.

Mostly I haven't advocated a change because it would mean rewriting a section of How to Create a Work's Page:

(if you're stuck, mentioning e.g. who The Hero and the Big Bad are will give you two tropes right off the bat),

However, all of that belongs in a different thread.

Anyway, the non-sarcastic meaning of Nice Guy is a component of the Heroic Archetype.

This person is a hero, pure and simple. They're almost always right, are a friend to all their teammates, and morally superior
[...]
They're not as [...] sensitive and socially adept as The Chick, but they're close. They can personally accomplish a variety of goals, but their real superpower is getting the whole diverse set of personalities to focus and pull together. They'll always know who to ask for help, and when — and usually how.

You can be nice with being good, Affably Evil is the first that comes to mind, although Punch-Clock Villain probably works as well.

Remember that the Heroic Archetype is more precise than "fights for right" and "the protagonist". As previously mentioned, it doesn't even require the character to actually be the protagonist, but people commonly mistake the two. The core archetype is generally what a Marty Stu is trying (and failing) to be; not just morally good but virtuous, not just polite but of impeccable behaviour, not just right but flawless.

The Classical definition of an Anti-Hero is someone whose flaws prevent them from fulfilling the Heroic Archetype. Roy Greenhilt's discussion with the Deva (to choose one of your examples) explains how he is disqualified from that archetype and therefore could be listed as an antihero, such as Good Is Not Nice.

In summary; there's more to Heroic Archetype than "character on the side of moral good".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#10: Nov 19th 2022 at 11:55:23 AM

...I think my confusion is that I think of The Hero as a supertrope that encompasses The Paragon (who has the high aspirational standards you're describing), the Anti-Hero (Classical Anti-Hero included), the Tragic Hero, the Byronic Hero, the classical Grecian hero whose moral behaviour is subject to Values Dissonance, etc. A larger-than-life character portrayed sympathetically even when the narrative is critical, in a position to have an exaggerated influence on their society and culture, still distinct from The Protagonist or Sympathetic P.O.V..

Luke Skywalker is the page image; I would characterise him as a Classical Anti-Hero who aspires to be The Hero but isn't actually portrayed that way until the start of Return of the Jedi. If The Hero is defined by being impeccable and flawless, then that seems at odds with the archetype of The Hero's Journey.

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#11: Nov 19th 2022 at 12:00:28 PM

I think Crazy is mostly going off of the trope's actual description, which does tend to be at odds with the casual, broader definition of The Hero that most people use (usually as a synonym for The Protagonist). The description does go on about how The Hero is flawless and noble and blah blah blah, which implies that it's a separate concept from the rest of the characters listed under Heroes.

But yeah, this may need a separate thread.

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Tremmor19 he/him (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
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#13: Nov 20th 2022 at 4:29:17 AM

Nice Guy refers, imo, to a relatively shallow version of "nice"— someone who is friendly or polite, generally non-confrontational, affable, and easy to get along with. probably doesn't insult people unless in a clearly friendly way, etc. They can be nuetral, cowardly or even on the side of evil, tho i'd imagine not commonly the main villain

The Hero (and its related tropes) refer to the deeper premise of being a good person, brave, saving people etc. They put their lives on the line to save a stranger, but might insult them while doing it

Quoth Into the Woods— Nice is Different Than Good

(a Nice Guy can also be a hero, of course, it just not a requirement)

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 20th 2022 at 7:42:41 AM

Tremmor19 he/him (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
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#14: Nov 20th 2022 at 4:41:54 AM

also agree this should be a character notable for being nice, not just occasionally. maybe it helps if they're nice to everyone, not just their friends? for example, i notice that hermione granger has this trope listed— tbh, i would not consider her noteably "nice", to anyone other than ron and harry. shes actually quite a bit difficult to get along with imo

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#15: Nov 20th 2022 at 6:55:41 PM

Oh good we're finally having this convo. This trope is wildly overused on the site to cover any person who engages in "nice behavior", which 1) leaves a lot of this up to troper interpretation as to what that means and in effect 2) includes a really wide arrange of characters making this mostly a useless descriptor more times than not.

From what I've understood, Nice Guy is meant for a Flat Character whose defining characteristic is that they are nice. They may change over the course of the story (meaning they aren't a Static Character), but at the end of the day they are defined first and foremost by their general pleasantness and unopposing personality.

The problem is defining what this doesn't include. What's the boundaries between "nice" and "good"? Can you be a Nice Guy while also being a villain? Or is this a trope specifically for mundane background characters, given that flatness is part of the package?

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 20th 2022 at 9:57:31 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#16: Nov 20th 2022 at 6:58:44 PM

I wouldn't say that being flat is part of the package at all. Where are you getting that bit from?

Again, I think of this as just being a counterpart to Jerkass. That one is defined by the person being mostly known for their jerk behavior, this one is defined by the person being known for their nice behavior. That, to me, is all that the trope means, and it's why it's so broadly defined and generalized.

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amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#17: Nov 20th 2022 at 7:16:27 PM

[up]It's written more or less like a character archetype (the first line being "The Nice Guy (or Girl) is nice") which is what makes me believe that this isn't meant to be just a characteristic i.e. this character is nice, but a full character embodiment.

It's also listed on Characters as Device which shares some of the same language as Flat Character.

  • From Flat Character: "A flat character is one that has only the bare minimum of characteristics necessary to play their role in the story."
  • From Characters as Device: "In service to the plot, characters are given these roles, sometimes making them just plot devices with lines (although, like devices, characters can and do get upgrades)."

Nerd had a similar issue in which it was written more or less like a Stock Character, but people were treating it as a descriptor leading to a huge bloat of examples for anyone that exhibited any behavior associated with nerds rather than being used to speicifically cover characters who are defined by their nerdiness, which lead to it being renamed into Stereotypical Nerd.

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 20th 2022 at 10:16:42 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#18: Nov 20th 2022 at 7:17:40 PM

I mean, to me that just seems more like a statement of fact, lol, bordering on Department of Redundancy Department. "This character is nice" does describe Nice Guy but it doesn't have to be the end-all be-all, it just means that being nice is their defining characteristic — not the only one.

I agree fully that it's misused for any character who shows a shred of kindness ever, which is obviously not the point. I just disagree that the character can't have other traits outside of being kind as long as their kindness still remains a defining characteristic.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 20th 2022 at 10:19:08 AM

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#20: Nov 20th 2022 at 7:33:11 PM

I mean, it's what I said before. The Nice Guy is like Jerkass. It's a character who is nice as a primary character trait. That doesn't have to be their whole personality, as long as they're genuinely nice on a consistent enough basis for it to be just who they are as a person.

It's not just "Alice is nice", but I also wouldn't say it's "Alice's entire character is being nice". To me, it's "One of Alice's defining character traits is how nice she is".

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#21: Nov 20th 2022 at 7:36:06 PM

[up][up][up]I see your point about it being used as the opposite for Jerkass, but tbh from what I've seen Jerkass has similar issues as Nice Guy (being overly applied and misused) and that understanding of both is what I see as the cause of the misuse. In my opinion, Nice Guy is more like The Generic Guy except with niceness as their single distinguishing trait rather than the inverse of Jerkass.

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 20th 2022 at 10:36:20 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#22: Nov 20th 2022 at 7:37:58 PM

I agree that both are overly applied, but IMO they're also both inverses of each other. That's just how I've always seen it and it doesn't make sense to me to say that the character has to be flat or something, though I can see where you're getting that take from now. Your version makes sense, I'll give you that, but I'm really just not convinced that it's what the trope is intended to be... Alternatively, you're right and my version comes from decay and misuse.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 20th 2022 at 10:38:31 AM

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Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#23: Nov 20th 2022 at 7:47:52 PM

I mean, it's what I said before. The Nice Guy is like Jerkass. It's a character who is nice as a primary character trait. That doesn't have to be their whole personality, as long as they're genuinely nice on a consistent enough basis for it to be just who they are as a person.

It's not just "Alice is nice", but I also wouldn't say it's "Alice's entire character is being nice". To me, it's "One of Alice's defining character traits is how nice she is".

Okay, but that doesn't really help? I don't know how I could distinguish between being nice and being Nice in a narratively meaningful way.

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#24: Nov 20th 2022 at 7:54:26 PM

I mean, it's just a personality trait. Personality traits are inherently part of a narrative because they affect what the character does. The difference I see is that there's a difference between being "normal nice" (i.e., not being a raging Jerkass) and being the Nice Guy who is basically always the nice one (which I feel is sort of synonymous with being more overtly nice to a greater degree). It's the difference between the characters who go out of their way to treat others kindly, versus the people who just so happen to be nice in a normal, non-noteworthy way.

I don't disagree that drawing the line is hard (which is probably why it's so overused), but I definitely think it's a tropeworthy concept.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 20th 2022 at 10:55:13 AM

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amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#25: Nov 20th 2022 at 9:39:17 PM

it's just a personality trait. Personality traits are inherently part of a narrative because they affect what the character does.

This is where I disagree but to be honest this goes beyond just this trope. I don't think a personality trait in of itself is a trope, which is what this suggests. A similar issue happened with Angry Black Man, which was attracting a bunch of examples of just...angry black dudes/misuse for black characters who sometimes exhibited the trait of being angry. Thus it was reworked into "Angry Black Man" Stereotype, similar to what happened to Nerd, now Stereotypical Nerd, and the same will probably happen with Scary Black Man which also suffers some of the same issues of misuse and tropers interpreting "scary" to cover a wide array of possible behaviors.

A personality trait in of itself doesn't have any specific pattern, it just is a thing a person can be. The selection of that trait in specific contexts can possibly be tropeworthy, but if there aren't any specific stereotypical or uniform presentations/manifestation of that trait we can attribute, it alone isn't tropeworthy IMO

And that's how Nice Guy currently is being interpreted

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 20th 2022 at 12:40:40 PM


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