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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#1: Nov 16th 2022 at 2:28:08 AM

To-do list

     Original Post 
Note: This thread was proposed by nw09.

No Pronunciation Guide is used for multiple different ideas at once, as shown by the wick check:

  • Written works that don't indicate the pronunciation of something where the spelling leaves it ambiguous.
  • Work that pronounce the same thing differently at different times.
  • A dub pronounces something differently from its source language.
  • The audience is unsure how to pronounce something (Viewer Pronunciation Confusion);
  • An adaptation pronounces something differently from its source material (Adaptation Name Change).

Proposing a disambiguation.

Wick Check

    Inconsistent pronunciation 
  • Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog Groups: Sometimes it's simply pronounced "gun" and other times it's pronounced "Gee-You-En".
  • Film.Night Of The Bloody Apes: Dr. Krallman's dub actor seems to have a bit of difficulty agreeing on the pronunciation of Julio's name. Sometimes he will pronounce it correctly, and at other times he will pronounce it as "Giulio".
  • Characters.Kirby King Dedede: Is it "dee-dee-dee" or "day-day-day"? Seems to depend mostly on region. Most English-speaking territories use the former; Japan as well as Italian-, French-, and Spanish-speaking countries use the latter. It seems both are correct, because the announcer of Super Smash Bros. Brawl pronounces his name both ways depending on your game's region. Additionally, if the crowd begins chanting his name, they'll alternate between the pronunciations.
  • Characters.Overwatch Support: It's not entirely clear whether the "P" is pronounced in Baptiste's name. Jeff Kaplan did not pronounce the P during a Developer Update, as you would in French. However, Baptiste's English voice actor Benz Antoine has stated that he switches between pronouncing it and not depending on when he's speaking English or Haitian Creole respectively, since it would be voiced in the latter. To further muddy the waters, there are some versions of the game (Japanese and French among them) in which it is never pronounced.
  • Characters.Baldurs Gate Other Party Members: None of the voice actors so much as tries to say Xzar's name out loud. Even Montaron only calls him 'the mad wizard'. Uh... (another example for this work is under the "Viewer pronunciation trouble" folder)
  • VideoGame.Pokemon Stadium: The announcer is infamous for having rather... unusual pronounciations of the Pokémon's names:
    • "OH! It's Niddorun Male!"
    • "OH! It's Eekins!"
    • "OH! It's Raychu!"
    • "OH! It's Pidgot!"
    • "OH! It's Grow-ithe!"
  • Characters.Fairy Tale Celestial Spirits: The normal English pronunciation is "SEE-lum", and yet the Japanese and English versions pronounce its name as "KYE-lum"
  • Characters.Splinter City: Aislinn is typically pronounced "Ash-lynn," but Adonis's lisp means her name is pronounced differently from time to time. Likewise, Arien is pronounced closer to à rien instead of the more common air-ee-ehn, though according to their artist this was on purpose.
  • ComicBook.Doctor Strange: As a result, the pronunciation of names such as 'Agamotto,' 'Hoggoth,' and 'Clea' varies widely from adaptation to adaptation.

    In-universe pronunciation trouble 
  • Characters.Aria The Scarlet Ammo: People call her "Tsao Tsao" as that's the Japanese pronunciation of her Chinese name Cao Cao, although she's adamant that "Koko" is the correct pronunciation where she came from.
  • Characters.V Shojo: It takes her three tries to pronounce "aurora borealis".
  • Podcast.The Dollop: The difficulty of correctly pronouncing unfamiliar names is an endless source of frustration for Dave. It almost becomes a drinking game when he does episodes in Australia.
  • Series.Hockey Night In Canada:
    • In past shows, broadcasters had a hell of a time with Eastern European names.
    • Historically, English Canadian announcers had a hard time with French Canadian player names.
    • Don Cherry regularly mispronounces the names of Jacques Martin and Jean-Sébastien Giguère, though this could be intentional. Becomes ridiculous with Kevin Bieksa of the Vancouver Canucks, whose name Cherry pronounces as "Bieska" every single time he mentions him. And it's not intended as derogatory, because Cherry does it even when he's complimenting Bieksa. Cherry mentions some are intentional. Dustin Byfuglien, for example (pronounced buff-lin locally, pronounced bu-foog-lee-in by Cherry). He also pronounces Luongo as Lalongo for some reason.
    • Bob Cole has trouble pronouncing everyone's name.
  • LetsPlay.LAN Party: Parodied as part of their Bad "Bad Acting" in the first Airsoft SpyParty episode. Sam purposefully pronounces Naruto wrong by overemphasizing every syllable.
  • Literature.The Rook: As far as Myfanwy knows, her name is said to rhyme with "Tiffany." This is backed up by the matron of the Estate. When she meets Bronwyn it turns out she's been saying it wrong.
  • Series.Banacek: Banacek has to correct someone's pronunciation of his name in every episode. Not Banna-seck but Banna-check. (And sometimes he corrects the spelling: "B-A-N-A-C-E-K, just like it sounds.")
  • WebAnimation.Toon Sandwich: Tony Stark tries to guess how Thanos' name is pronounced before guessing "The Anus".
  • Film.Once Upon A Time In Hollywood: Rick's character on Lancer is named Decoteau, which he thinks is pronounced Dakota but everyone else pronounces as Daycahtoo (the French pronunciation would be closer to Decohtow).

    Viewer pronunciation trouble 

    Aversions 

    Adaptation pronounces it differently 
  • Theatre.Jasper In Deadland: In mythology the River Lethe is pronounced 'lee-thee' or 'leeth', while here it's pronounced 'leth.'
  • WesternAnimation.The Hobbit: In this film, Bofur and Smaug are pronounced as "Boffer" and "Smog" rather than "Boafer" and "Smaog". However, Dáin is pronounced properly (day-in, rather than Dane).
  • Thor: Tales of Asgard: At least, they apparently didn't have one, since everyone pronounces "einherjar" incorrectly.

    Other/unsure 
  • Anime.Pokemon Lucario And The Mystery Of Mew:
    • It's Bon-sly, not Bon-slee. Pokémon USA were reached for comment after the movie was premiered at a convention and confirmed that 4Kids were doing it wrong.
    • Also, Regice's name makes it look like it should be pronounced Reg-ice, not Reg-i-ice. Although it is pronounced Reg-i-ice in the Japanese version and in most later appearances of the character.
  • Creator.JRR Tolkien: Not his invented names or languages but his surname, which is pronounced "Tol-keen".
  • Music.Chen: Though at a glance, you'll know that "Chen" is read as chen, in Chinese it's actually pronounced somewhere in between chon and chun. He pronounces it in its Chinese pronunciation when doing Chinese promotions.
  • Manga.Nisekoi: "Zawsze" is supposed to pronounced "zav-sheh," but the katakana spell out "Zakusya." Spelling issue, not pronunciation
  • WebVideo.Yuriofwind: While reading Haunted Ocarina of Time, Yuri jokingly calls the title "a haunted flute" followed by poking fun at debates among Zelda fans as to how "ocarina" is pronounced.
    "So let us get right down to business as I tell you the tale... of Haunted Ocarina of Time. Yes, you heard me. It's a haunted flute. To make things more terrifying, no one can decide on its pronunciation: Ock-a-rina, or oak-a-rina. Forums have debated such things since the dawn of time. So it's brave of you, author, so very brave, to discuss such matters."
  • Characters.Fairy Tail Others: The original Japanese manga and Funimation's English dub pronounces her name with a hard "oo" sound in the Funimation dub, similar to how it is in Japanese. For those that spell it "Ul", however, it would be rendered as "Ool" while the Animax/Tagalog dub pronounces it with a long-u sound.
  • Characters.Dancougar: Her name is Japanese and 'Sara' is in Romaji - the actual pronunciation is 'Sah-Rah' with short vowels, not the English-spelled 'Sarah'.note 
  • Music.Yes: A strange Real Life example, as Anderson mispronounces "Michigan" with a hard "ch" in the band's cover of Simon & Garfunkel's "America". He was still doing this some twenty-five years later on the Keys to Ascension performance. Strangely, he pronounces the city name of Saginaw correctly both times.
  • FreudianTrio.Video Games: Superego: Ton(g) Pooh is the leader of the trio, imparting her master's orders and pushing them forward as a team.
  • Literature.A Darkness More Than Night: Inverted. Connelly helpfully tells us that Judge Houghton has a nickname: "Shootin' Houghton," which should definitively establish that his last name is pronounced to rhyme with "Shootin'".
  • DarthWiki.Queen Of Hearts: Erggggg NO. Here it is:
    • Maconochie: Mah-koh-noh-chee-ay.
    • Hashinkraten: Hah-shin-krah-tin.
  • Literature.Age Of Fire: The pronunciation of AuRon is known, thanks to a note at the beginning of Dragon Champion, which also tells us that adult male dragons have their name's emphasis on the second syllable, and Natasatch sounds like "not as such" as shown in the scene where AuRon meets her. However, there is no pronunciation given for anything else, and this in a series that contains names like Aethleethia, OuThroth, and NoFhyriticus, and words like "tchatlassat", "foua", and "haspadalanesh".
  • Literature.The Merlin Trilogy: Trope-name only ZCE

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 16th 2023 at 12:13:49 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#2: Nov 16th 2022 at 2:28:19 AM

Paging ~nw09 to the thread.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#3: Nov 16th 2022 at 2:43:24 AM

(Huh, expected more Spell My Name With An S misuse in wicks.)

For diambig we'll need to see what to with other stated categories. The third one may be Adaptation Name Change as well.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#4: Nov 16th 2022 at 4:28:58 AM

[up]I was actually thinking Dub Name Change (though I neglected to mention that), but Adaptation Name Change might work as well.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#5: Nov 16th 2022 at 4:33:35 AM

Forgot Dub Name Change is also a thing.

The Unpronounceable, Inconsistent Dub and Sudden Name Change may be the more disambig options.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 16th 2022 at 3:34:47 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#6: Nov 16th 2022 at 5:21:21 AM

Inconsistent Dub and Sudden Name Change seem like they'd cover the second bullet point.

Between that and the third bullet point being covered by Dub Name Change, that leaves the first bullet point, which the wick check doesn't appear to have any examples of (or at least not enough to keep the trope from being wick-starved if we narrow it down to that), so I'm in favor of disambiguating the other bullet points.

I'm not sure whether the first bullet point even counts as a trope even after getting past the lack of examples. The fact that written works don't always give the pronunciation of names and terms in them is simply a result of the works being written and not spoken. If anything, it would be a trope if written works did provide a pronunciation guide, whether it's via a glossary or a footnote.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 16th 2022 at 7:24:17 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#7: Nov 16th 2022 at 5:26:22 AM

Literal examples of "no pronunciation guide" have questionable tropeworthiness. I mean, unless it's a tv adaptation, I've never heard of "pronunciation guide" concept existing (Aside Japanese media liking to give character names in both alphabets to avert Alternate Character Reading).

e: Also found another aversion (including double-aversions?) of No Pronunciation Guide in Hollywood Spelling.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 16th 2022 at 4:29:19 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#8: Nov 16th 2022 at 9:12:47 AM

I realized something about the first bullet point, which I didn't 100% consider when I wrote my previous posts despite kind of discussing it: It's defined in the negative, meaning not only is it the absence of something in a work, it's something TRS has encountered in the past and determined to not be a trope (since tropes are about things that are in a work) each time I've seen such cases brought up. Nobody Over 50 Is Gay and Stray Shots Strike Nothing are the only cases I can think of that had threads since I started posting on TRS, but there might be some other cases I'm forgetting.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 16th 2022 at 11:13:09 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Nov 16th 2022 at 10:32:37 AM

I think this is one of those early pages that describe an observation but aren't really tropeworthy. A lot of them are like, "Hey, have you noticed that [thing] doesn't happen...?" Leading to cuts like [up]

Blegh Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#10: Nov 16th 2022 at 7:24:55 PM

The first bullet point is also somewhat ambiguous. Given that the Real Life section establishes that most languages aren't phonetically consistent, one could argue that every written work without a pronunciation guide could qualify.

Several examples elsewhere on the page also boil down to "some fans disagree with the author", which is bound to happen. This doesn't always mean that the pronunciation is ambiguous, it could just be that part of the audience missed some wordplay or that name just isn't common where they life.

I'd also say that most of the film and tv examples can't count, on the basis that you can hear the pronunciation. Sometimes pronunciations differ because different actors have different accents, but "more than 1 accent appears" isn't exactly a trope.

Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#11: Nov 16th 2022 at 8:25:34 PM

There are also many examples in the Video Game page in which the original game plays the trope straight, but the remake of the same game becomes Suddenly Voiced and finally has Word of God or Word of Saint Paul settling pronunciation debates.

There should be a soft split for examples of such video games (and also placed in folders by genre) between video games without Suddenly Voiced remakes and video games with Suddenly Voiced remakes.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Nov 16th 2022 at 11:27:40 AM

Kirby is awesome.
VerySunshine Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#12: Nov 16th 2022 at 11:52:22 PM

The first point seems like a functional duplicate of viewer pronounciation confusion.

The entries that boil down to "This work uses phonemes English doesn't have" or "viewers have trouble with a word from another language" sound like complaining.

Edited by VerySunshine on Nov 16th 2022 at 12:54:57 PM

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#13: Nov 19th 2022 at 11:23:37 AM

Hooked a crowner for whether to disambiguate, since, as I said, the first concept has no examples in the wick check on top of being defined in the negative, and we already found places to move examples of the other concepts to.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#17: Nov 22nd 2022 at 4:22:22 PM

There may be rare cases of an In-Universe example of someone not knowing the pronunciation. Luckily, that sandbox back when we dealt with It Is Pronounced Tro-PAY is still standing, so send any such cases there.

I did encounter one such case.

Edit: That reminds me, I need to start sorting that sandbox!

Edited by Berrenta on Nov 22nd 2022 at 6:24:32 AM

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#18: Dec 1st 2022 at 1:01:33 PM

I remember that sandbox! Let's put that in the OP.

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#19: Jan 14th 2023 at 4:07:35 AM

I forgot to mention that some time ago, me (and prolly other tropers) got it down to 975 wicks.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#20: Jan 16th 2023 at 8:42:38 AM

I didn't realize this TRS thread was still going on or I would have mentioned this before: we have a TLP draft predating this thread called Inconsistent Pronunciation that covers cases where characters In-Universe pronounce the same name differently.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#21: Jan 16th 2023 at 10:13:02 AM

[up]I suppose when that launches, it could go on the disambiguation page. I'll link to it in the to-do list in case anyone wants to move anything there.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Jan 31st 2023 at 12:05:04 PM

975 wicks

  • No Pronunciation Guide: Subverted. There IS a pronunciation guide, as in, a literal guide to the pronunciations, in the back of the book, but that didn't stop the movie from getting several of them wrong.

@_@

Edited by Tabs on Feb 1st 2023 at 1:30:29 AM

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#23: Mar 8th 2023 at 12:07:32 PM

444 wicks left, just Characters/, WebAnimation/, WebVideo left.

On a now cut page

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#24: Mar 14th 2023 at 5:07:54 AM

Just Characters/ left now.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#25: Mar 17th 2023 at 1:39:42 AM

No Pronunciation Guide is no more, so I hereby pronounce this thread concluded.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Add Post

Trope Repair Shop: No Pronunciation Guide
19th Nov '22 11:19:07 AM

Crown Description:

No Pronunciation Guide appears to be covering multiple concepts at once, and they appear to already be covered elsewhere, with one concept that isn't (written works that don't indicate the pronunciation of something where the spelling leaves it ambiguous) not only lacking examples in the wick check, but also being defined in the negative (with being defined in the negative being determined to prevent something from being a trope in the past) and other concepts being covered elsewhere. What should be done with No Pronunciation Guide?

Total posts: 25
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