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Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#2151: Oct 10th 2022 at 9:56:16 PM

[up][up]I knew I wasn't screaming on the inside enough. I'll be sure to remember that once the threads are back.

If I'll be honest, I was a little taken aback that people took issue with the socializing posts. Like that isn't allowed to happen at all on other threads?

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 10th 2022 at 9:58:07 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#2152: Oct 10th 2022 at 9:57:30 PM

It's one of the reasons why things like birthday messages and condolences for lost family became common.. because, for all that we were doing work, when you're talking with someone every single day for over a year, whether you actively like the person or not you're still gonna be close enough with them to be fine shooting them a happy birthday during a vote or something like that. On the other hand, friendships can be made without things become an outright clique, and that's definitely the line I'm more worried about than the line between "fun hobby" and "serious cleanup" - I personally think that that balance was one we had previously met fine, and it'll be even more fine once the thread is split and people can focus on the parts they actually want to worry about.

I will point out that I wasn't a fan of people who would just post a "happy birthday" on the threads, but I don't personally see the issue with slipping it in if the post also has another purpose. But then again, maybe that's just a confirmation bias thing I've got because that's just how it's been since I got there.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 10th 2022 at 12:59:22 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#2153: Oct 10th 2022 at 10:01:51 PM

I'm not kidding when I say that so many cleanups make me want to pull my hair out. These things can be absurdly frustrating. I can't blame anyone if they don't want to go onto the more serious threads where things are more strict and discussions are limited to what's relevant at the time. Like... I can definitely see the appeal of CM and MB, however they do definitely clash with the other threads and that's something I think everyone is aware of.

Whether or not it's anything that can actually be fixed beyond the cultural changes we're already discussing remains to be seen, and whether or not it's something that has to be fixed remains to be proven.

Edit: And yeah, we can't really socialize on other project threads, if we want to talk we go to Yack Fest — we keep unrelated chitchat to a bare minimum and the whole atmosphere is a lot more "professional" (for lack of a better term).

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 10th 2022 at 1:03:03 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#2154: Oct 10th 2022 at 10:07:30 PM

All I can say about that first part is that I've had various Characters/ thread discussions that have actually made me want to punch my computer screen (including a discussion that you participated in fairly recently War - I won't name names but I think you'll know who I mean), so yeah, some of the other cleanup threads can really be a slog - and that's just on the stuff that I actually like talking about.

Other than that... I guess I just don't see the problem with a few socializing posts as long as the post also has another project-related purpose. Like I said before, I've slipped personal things into an EP before (like one time when I celebrated a 4.0 semester with an EP) and I'll slip happy birthday messages into voting posts all the time, and as long as that's not the entirety of the post (as we have had issues with with others), then I personally don't see the problem. Then again, if it makes the threads stick out, then maybe it might need a change, but it's not one that I really think is a priority - out of all the culture issues, that's not one I'm incredibly focused on (if anything, I feel like if a new person really wants to feel welcome, what better way to do that than wish them a happy birthday or something?)

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 10th 2022 at 1:10:15 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#2155: Oct 10th 2022 at 10:12:01 PM

I mean, yeah, if it's slipped into normal posts that's fine, it's when the posts are nothing but chit-chat that it gets to rule-breaking levels IMO. It's certainly not the worst issue in the world, but if you're an outsider looking in it does make you ask "how can they get away with it when we can't?"

(And yes, pretty sure I know exactly who you're talking about...)

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 10th 2022 at 1:12:35 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#2156: Oct 10th 2022 at 10:13:21 PM

I know we've tried to get certain users to stop making purely socializing/off-topic posts in the past (I won't name them but I can think of at least two that have been doing that for years) and I've even hollered them before without them being thumped out. It's an issue we've acknowledged in the past and even tried to fight with no real success, and it's one of the few cases that I really wish the mods had been more active in because I know I've hollered a lot of stuff like that and it's stayed up.

Just wanted to put on the record that most thread regulars didn't like that either, but there's only so many times you can tell another user to stop before it's obvious they're just not gonna listen, and then what do we do, make an ATT report because someone keeps wishing other people a happy birthday? As annoying and simple as the issue is on paper, it's hard as fuck to actually meaningfully counter.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 10th 2022 at 1:27:42 PM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#2157: Oct 10th 2022 at 10:15:30 PM

Aside from feeling much the same way as Star, I also feel like emphasizing that it is, in fact, a hobby thread could help with some things on the threads. I have not shared my own experiences much, but a couple years ago I did an EP on Chernabog from Fantasia, and while I expected he might not go up, I felt like some of the responses were really rude, acting surprised that there downvotes 'even needed to be said' and such, Ravok came to my defense later, Wich was nice, but I feel like that was undeeded. And one user at the time, Wary, got kind of aggressive on both there and other topics when they were around.

I feel like there has been an issue with a Serious Business mindset on the threads that leads to hostility from time to time. It's less bad now, but it is still a problem I noticed.

Meanwhile, most of the time when I see someone trying to be a newcomer or pitch in with discussion, it is typically because both are popular tropes and they wanted to discuss a certain character.

I hope this all makes sense, but I feel like emphasizing that this is a hobby thread and such would not just be cool, but would help with many of the things we have been working on. Like removing toxicity from the threads and making things more welcoming for newcomers.

EDIT:also I agree with the balance on 'socializing' posts.

Edited by Snoketrope on Oct 10th 2022 at 10:18:00 AM

Bow to the Prototype
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#2158: Oct 10th 2022 at 10:30:57 PM

Yeah, as someone who was at times guilty of just posting the casual birthday, condolence, etc. here and there, then yeah using that particular thread for that kind of thing rather than the CM or MB ones is really not all that unreasonable.

I'd say the threshold for either rewatching works for candidates or seeking works out for candidates very much depends on the Troper. While certain movies I watched for candidates were admittedly dumb, they either did give me someone who counted or someone who didn't count and I was fine with that. Other than one time I did an anti-EP to try to prove a point and other times when I have done an anti-EP to break down why a character people were curious about didn't count, I'll only do EPs when I think I can make a case for someone being approved—whichever way the result goes.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2159: Oct 11th 2022 at 12:24:58 AM

My socializing-related opinion;

  • People noting bad things that happened to them often comes up on why they aren't able to do an effortpost or write something out. This is relevant to the thread, and some condolences feels fine as long as it's not a page full of them. Overall, it should be an afterthought and just an addition to on-topic posts. Stuff like PM's exist, as well as Yack Fest anyway.
  • Birthday messages are completely off-topic.
  • Anything that isn't explaining why they can't do a thing is off-topic too. While I don't entirely consider the whole condolences purely clique behavior so much as just being nice alone, it obviously does get out of hand and having posts only about that makes it difficult to keep a vote tally.

My solution for this is to maybe linking to a proper thread in the header for that kind of stuff. As well as "Sorry, things aren't going well for me in real life, I can't do 'said thing' right now and leave it at that" is another good solution, since it keeps it hard on topic enough. Not saying it's necessarily the best one, cause I can see where some might feel it's kind of meanish too to not allow them to be honest about the situation. YMMV, heh, on how we should allow that.

Shadow?
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#2160: Oct 11th 2022 at 12:47:50 AM

I do admit with all these new changes things might not go as smoothly as we hope. Not against the changes mind you, but to be blunt there are some tropers here who were not part of MB/CM that honestly felt like they were intending to squash the threads out of personal issues, and well while I understand the thread won't be for everyone and I know it has been decided these tropes will remain, if these individuals cause issues once we restart I'm gonna say it now I won't hesitate to call it out.

Needed to get that out there because while I don't mind the constant debates and talks, it feels there has been some tropers who we need to be cautious of just base one how they acted but that's just me.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#2161: Oct 11th 2022 at 12:53:08 AM

I Support Star’s suggestion for balancing socializing posts

We also should remember that people ultimately chose which eps to do and I don’t think there is anything wrong with people deciding to check works they don’t like because it’s ultimately their choice, as long as it isn’t painfull to them

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 11th 2022 at 2:18:28 AM

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#2162: Oct 11th 2022 at 1:19:31 AM

There were definitely occasional non-regs here at one point or another who were overly aggressive. But thankfully now it's moved to more civil discussion.

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 11th 2022 at 6:55:21 AM

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2163: Oct 11th 2022 at 1:34:11 AM

Yeah, basically, we want the thread to be open to all. But we're not trying to encourage spiteful ideas either. Those are just as bad and don't help.

Besides, the Moderation has also made it clear some things will not be allowed. As of now too, the reason for the more civility is vulgarity is not being used, no more allcaps, and there's more time being taken to read, along with the thread's speed slowwwwwing down due to that and less angry people.

Of course, I completely understand where many are coming from. Things like special rules, etc. need to be much better handled. Truthfully, there may be cases where any trope or thread requires a special rule sometimes, but that's not to be confused with a unique privilege. I.E. "We declare something is no go" feels like a special privilege. Us having two threads is closer to a special rule, but we have actual reasons for it(to keep the threads slower and easier to work with, due to having both in one thread causes ridiculously high speeds).

Shadow?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#2164: Oct 11th 2022 at 2:01:43 AM

My perspective on seeking out CM's is that it's fine, but I'd advise against torturing oneself just to get one. For example, among the regulars I'm known for my B-Movie proposals, especially from horror movies. However, this is because I genuinely enjoy watching them in general. Even the ones that did end up sucking were ones I wanted to watch. I do try to plan EP's ahead for what I do pick but that's for my own ease more than anything else.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#2165: Oct 11th 2022 at 2:05:21 AM

Right, if you'd check out the work anyway then there's no problem.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#2166: Oct 11th 2022 at 2:33:32 AM

I mean, there are a few works that I've checked out basically to see if they had a CM, but nothing I tortured myself to see. They were either quick (like a chapter or 2 of a manga) or TV episodes.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2167: Oct 11th 2022 at 2:38:02 AM

Yeah, if it feels like a chore, it might be not really fun to go for that work. A bad work isn't necessarily a chore, as Bile Fascination exists. I mean, come on, Mortal Kombat Annihilation has a CM, and it's an awful movie(fun at best for some. The music was awesome, but that's... it). ...Okay, I liked it, but still. My standards are low. >.>;

Shadow?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#2168: Oct 11th 2022 at 2:44:01 AM

Like, I saw several episodes of Criminal Minds, but by choice, as I already liked CSI, so that wasn't a chore.

And hell, I started reading In Death specifically for candidates, but ended up enjoying the books I read so much that I eventually read the entire series for fun.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#2169: Oct 11th 2022 at 5:51:36 AM

My last thing on socializing posts? Basically, I like what Snoke pointed out before - while this is a serious cleanup effort and that shouldn't be downplayed, a big part of the appeal for the threads is that they're far more hobby-like than any other cleanup thread on the site. That's just an inherent part of the structure of it - we get to decide what we discuss, it's just as focused on additions as it is on removals, etc. I feel like while we need to keep a formal structure intact so that it's not pure chaos, what will attract new people is if we lean into that hobby aspect more than we currently are. I know what attracted me to it wasn't the official stuff or the rules, but it was that it largely seemed like a bunch of people hanging out and discussing whatever happened to come up at the time - yet when there was actual discussion to be had, it was still taken seriously. Yes, we shouldn't have entire pages that are just "happy birthday X!" but by the same token, I feel like if we're trying to bring in new people, saying "you can't talk about anything but thread-related matters under any circumstances" isn't really the way to attract new people.

There's also one specific part I take some umbrage with:

While I don't entirely consider the whole condolences purely clique behavior so much as just being nice alone, it obviously does get out of hand and having posts only about that makes it difficult to keep a vote tally.

While I'm not a fan of pages full of people saying happy birthday and nothing else, condolences are an entirely different thing and I don't see anything wrong with them at all. I've never seen them done in a manner that makes it difficult to keep track of votes, especially because, again, they're usually mixed in with actual voting posts. I've only ever posted something that required condolences once, and frankly seeing people that I work with all the time sending condolences while still getting things done made that day a lot better than it could've been.

Basically, cutting down clique behavior is good, but one of the most welcoming aspects of the threads has always been things like wishing each other happy birthdays while still being a productive cleanup thread, and while some people struggle with that second half, they're the minority for sure. We need to strike a balance between "hobby with friends" and "serious cleanup thread", and I feel like the way to do that is to allow the social stuff as long as it's mixed in with the serious things we need to be doing. It might be a bit of a special circumstance, but the way these threads work at all is a bit of a special circumstance.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#2170: Oct 11th 2022 at 5:56:09 AM

I agree with [up] completely. While there may be times when it gets a bit out of hand, there are ALSO times IMO where it gets cracked down a bit too easily.

Also, regardless of the final decision on reservations, is a set release date one of the requirements going forward? If so, can we remove the works without a release date (with the exception of ongoing works) from the Discussion Dates pages?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2171: Oct 11th 2022 at 5:57:45 AM

Snoke & Star lay it out well imo... there's a healthy balance to be struck and we don't want the threads becoming overly "robotic" feeling, especially with the draw to tropers who've done great work on the threads being notably partially driven by the care they felt in some of the more "social" posts. I concur a post should never wholly comprise of "Having a bad week" or "Happy birthday" but I don't think it's harmful if such things are included in on topic posts. A big thing is we want friendly environments and I don't feel we should be super stringent about actioning people who just make a remark along these lines if it's still got info pertinent to the thread's purpose and fosters an amiable space.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#2172: Oct 11th 2022 at 5:59:41 AM

And for whatever it's worth, this has come up before and nombretomado, albeit with his mod-hat off it looks like, basically said that stuff was okay as long as it didn't lead to a full-on thread derailment.

[up][up] Yes, that is indeed the plan.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 11th 2022 at 8:59:56 AM

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#2173: Oct 11th 2022 at 6:15:39 AM

I think it's important to consider that sometimes these well-wishes/condolences/etc. only served to reinforce cliquiness, though. If you are popular in the thread, you could get pages of congratulatory or condolence posts. If you weren't, you get maybe 2 or 3 responses total.

It could be for whatever reason but it's noticeable when you already feel left out or unliked.

Edited by LargoQuagmire on Oct 11th 2022 at 6:16:00 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2174: Oct 11th 2022 at 6:19:39 AM

Yeah, while I personally don't find these posts a problem, I do think that one person getting 2-3 replies while the other gets 10 is a giant red flag that we are seeing a clique or pecking order.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#2175: Oct 11th 2022 at 6:24:00 AM

I personally can't speak to that but then again it's not a pattern I was ever looking for.

So we encourage people to respond to the posts in a manner that still keeps things on topic. People will either say or not say things for whatever their personal reasons are, but we can't outright force people to respond to that stuff and outright banning it for me seems like it would only alienate some people. It's something we might have to monitor and I admit I don't have an outright solution.


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