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ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#1851: Oct 9th 2022 at 10:19:44 PM

I would say it's something that should be more encouraged rather than mandated. What's triggering to others can often be subjective so it would be hard to make a consistent rule about it. In general though, I think we should encourage users to be prudent when proposing especially graphic villains.

Just imagine something here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1852: Oct 10th 2022 at 1:25:26 AM

Uh for racist propaganda wouldn't adding examples violate ROCEDJ.

This is an audience reaction not an objective trope so adding one sounds like it would be a really bad idea. Like i can't think of any pages that even think of taking the actual side of the propagandist.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1853: Oct 10th 2022 at 1:28:34 AM

There is a major difference between taking sides and reporting on how a character is portrayed within a work. CM examples do the second one. It wouldn't be us saying we agree with the views being pushed... just cataloguing how evil the story's villain is.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#1854: Oct 10th 2022 at 1:33:18 AM

Abstaining is fine. Hell, I've abstained for probably dumb reasons myself [lol]

WTF is this 50 Shades of Red thing? A Google search gives me like 5 different results.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1855: Oct 10th 2022 at 1:33:54 AM

Yeah but encouraging the addition of examples like that at least in the YMMV just gives these works more actual legimeticy there. Like let's be honest is anyone cataloguing the actual thoughts of the people who they were written for?

When these works aren't neutrally written in YMMV. Let's be honest. Anyone whose opinion would go to that side (which this would) would lead to a full ban on the site otherwise. So it's quite strange to allow it here?

Edited by miraculous on Oct 10th 2022 at 1:34:23 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1856: Oct 10th 2022 at 1:36:46 AM

It really doesn't. They're just fictional characters in a fictional work. No more, no less.

Again, this isn't some medal of honor. It's just a trope and how a character is evil enough in their actions and other criteria to apply.

Shadow?
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1857: Oct 10th 2022 at 1:51:23 AM

Uh. Yeah but you don't think there would be uncomfortable to have subtext about using that in a YMMV trope for a racist propaganda work. I can't really think of any other works like that that have "neutral tropes" like that are listed anyway as the people who would add that tend to get banned later.

And it also does feel like it's an agreement to the works ideas even if not intended to be since again this is a YMMV trope meaning its not something you can neutrally write is in the work bit what people think is in the work.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#1858: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:00:19 AM

The Racist Propaganda Work: Ari Goldman is the ruthless leader of the Elders of Zion. Having controlled America from the shadows for years, he uses bribe and blackmailing to slowly turning white people into second class citizens. To weaken the country, he’s also funding Islamic terrorist cells and supplied them with bombs that resulted in hundreds of deaths all across the country. He also keeps dozens of white children as sex slaves for himself and his follow conspirators imprisoned in the basement of his mansion and at one point threatens to do the same thing to Racist Protagonist’s children if he doesn’t surrender to him immediatly.

That’s the kind of entry that would be perfectly in line with our police if we would allow racist works to have CM entries and we really don’t need to give them any kind of recognition. Yes there are probably a lot of racist works where nobody counts (thankfully) but I don’t want to take any chances and hope nobody will ever bring up anything from a Neo-Nazi propaganda work that has a page entry.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1859: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:02:50 AM

No, I really don't. Because this isn't a trope that's about subjective criteria, but extremely clear objective things.

The chances anyone could even apply within one of those works is slim to begin with, but if one can, that means that other characters aren't even close to bad enough to affect the heinous standard in the way something like South Park would, which is a good example of an actual work that directly has too many characters who are way too heinous along with too much comedy to have a plausible candidate. Which has no applications here.

I was never worried in any way then, nor am now. I don't see how it legitimately violates ROCEJ. If they were strictly based upon a real life person, then yes, I could see it. But it has to be to the point where it's barely a fictional work on its own, and is closer to a documentary with slightly more fanstastical things. That's where it would be too close. If it doesn't fit that, then at that point they are too fictional for it to be applying the same situation.

Those are different kind of tropes to begin with as well, as they actually have more strict issues like morality or actually saying certain bad stuff is okay. ...Those don't apply to a CM in the same way to begin with. So I fail to see how it actually legitimately relates, once again.

Shadow?
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1860: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:05:17 AM

Also again its one thing if this were an objective trope within the work that could be written neutrally. But this is again a YMMV trope meaning its what people think is in it. And I need to repeat that part. Which makes this a much bigger issue.

Like as noted most people here probably aren't going to touch stuff like that. So it will instead attract the people who do agree with it.

Like do we really want to have the site bombarded by racists or other pricks for no other reason.

That seems to be trying to use the paradox of tolerance.

Edited by miraculous on Oct 10th 2022 at 2:05:45 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1861: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:13:57 AM

It's still an objective trope criteria-wise.

The subjectiveness is basically who applies to that criteria, due to it being a trope related partially to morality.

The reason ROCEJ would apply to something like Draco in Leather Pants, is because the point behind that trope is people like horrible people and/or villains/antagonists(etc.), which does promote bad stuff on various kind of pages. That's where it makes sense to be cautious.

CM doesn't promote them. It only goes to show they are completely horrible and irredeemable, quite literally the opposite of making them look good.

...If it's attracting bad tropers, then they would be bad anywhere on the site and we can just report it. If necessarily, some pages can be locked anyway. They'd have been attracted to the particular work regardless of one trope. As the trope condemns those actions by design, it really doesn't show how it can be a particular ROCEJ situation. This isn't, again, about real life people, which is definitely a situation where ROCEJ applies. We already cover this issue hard by making sure solely fictional people can plausibly apply for the criteria.

Shadow?
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1862: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:21:31 AM

Yeah but the YMMV part is agreeing to someone counting. I don't think you'd have anyone agree to someone from one of these works keeping if it weren't you know at least an agreement with that's works ideas (Like even people here saying they wouldn't touch it so where we would even get the votes from. It also legit sounds like As that's a scary thought).

Also we have cut plenty of examples before in ROCEDJ. Just because we have a page doesn't to something doesn't mean it gets no rules you have to follow. We had an entire thread to cleanse the strange examples coming from Victoria for shoe shoehorning for one.

Also does the site need to create more issues for itself in the future well were having uh major political problems. Like actively trying to get them seems a strange choice.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#1863: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:28:20 AM

It does not mean that you agree with the works ideas, it just means you are acknowledging a character is portrayed in a work a certain way. Not that the portrayal was a good thing.

Again, most of the time people will not want to bring these guys up to begin with, and a lot of the times they just will not count to begin with. Or with othet cases, like the Turner Files, it's only the 'heroes' who you could make an argument for.

Bow to the Prototype
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1864: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:32:34 AM

Yeah but the issue here is that the normal regulars are already saying they won't vote for it anyway. Meaning it will just logically go to guys who do at least partly agree with those views.

Which is a legit issue.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#1865: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:36:39 AM

I am, not sure I follow.

Like if other people are called in to vote I guess theoretically some could be people who agree with the works ideas but I am unsure how strong of a chance that has. If someone is expressing shady behavior, seeming to have an agenda, we can report that

Bow to the Prototype
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1866: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:43:48 AM

I guess but it's also the reason we you know lock pages rather than just systematically ban people from them. Creating problems that like that when it could be cut off rather than painfully having to constantly add new solutions over and over again seems exhausting.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1867: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:45:28 AM

e: nvm think i misunderstood

Edited by ChloeJessica on Oct 10th 2022 at 2:46:21 AM

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#1868: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:46:56 AM

Maybe let's just wait for a mod to šay "yes" or "no" for if any propaganda material is allowed on the site.

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 10th 2022 at 2:47:24 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1869: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:51:12 AM

Yeah uh at this point were just kinda going on circles

Anyone have a new topic to do until we can get back to this.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1870: Oct 10th 2022 at 2:54:03 AM

I agree. Let's just wait.

I got no ideas otherwise?

Shadow?
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#1871: Oct 10th 2022 at 3:03:33 AM

So uh, I was wondering.

Are we still going to use the old threads at all, or are we going to start afresh with 4 new threads?

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#1872: Oct 10th 2022 at 3:04:37 AM

So what are we gonna do with the NA list? I feel like that subject kind of got buried. Some people were voting cut and I kind of feel like there are only a couple guys who really belong there.

[up] I think we can just use the old cleanup thread for the cleanup thread.

Edited by Snoketrope on Oct 10th 2022 at 3:05:16 AM

Bow to the Prototype
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1873: Oct 10th 2022 at 3:05:52 AM

To be honest, I think making new ones is for the better.

The reason being that they're all too tightly packed with both kinds(candidates and cleanup), so a hard renewal can help overall. That, and maybe we can spend the time to try and figure out some way to list previous candidates' links or something in the first post? It would take a while, but it might help. We had a similar concept with the "why they aren't a monster" kind of page, but this would help a bit too.

Shadow?
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#1874: Oct 10th 2022 at 3:07:31 AM

I am for keeping old threads as a cleanup threads, or maybe make new cleanup and keep existing for EP and disscusion

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 10th 2022 at 3:09:58 AM

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1875: Oct 10th 2022 at 3:13:06 AM

the mods have already said there are going to be new threads as part of any solution. it's just a matter of if there's two or four new threads.


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